Anyone make rectangular canister damascus?

[Leon Husock]

I'm looking to make a canister where the desired pattern would appear on the long side, and I'd rather not have to distort it significantly to forge it down to a usable thickness (I don't have the ability to cut a billet into thinner slabs). Has anyone ever made canister damascus in a can that's narrower than it is wide, say 1x2x6" instead of 2x2x4"? Obviously the usual squaring dies would be out of the question, but I've made successful canister welds just using flat dies before.

 

[weo]

I'm looking to make a canister where the desired pattern would appear on the long side, and I'd rather not have to distort it significantly to forge it down to a usable thickness (I don't have the ability to cut a billet into thinner slabs). Has anyone ever made canister damascus in a can that's narrower than it is wide, say 1x2x6" instead of 2x2x4"? Obviously the usual squaring dies would be out of the question, but I've made successful canister welds just using flat dies before.

I have, and it's do-able with careful forging, especially when initially setting the powder. My cans were/are 1-1/2 x 6-ish x 8" filled with some bar stock, some solid pieces and the rest powder.
But when I get a press again, I'll probably go about this by doing multiple billets and bars instead of trying to do the patterns I'm shooting for all in one go.

 

[Leon Husock]

I have, and it's do-able with careful forging, especially when initially setting the powder. But when I get a press again, I'll probably accomplish this by doing multiple bars instead of trying to do the patterns I'm shooting for all in one go.

Good to know, thanks! My pattern goal has to do with smaller items moving around larger pieces placed in the powder, so a multibar billet wouldn't be able to accomplish the same thing. I figure if I do mostly flat die presses on the wide side of the can with some light forging on the sides it should set nicely.

 

[weo]

One thing to keep in mind is the size of the end caps. Ideally you want these to upset as you weld up the can and not bow out so they have to be thick enough for this to be more likely. IIRC stock should be no more than 4:1(?) height to thickness, so if it's 6" tall, so you'd want 1.5" thick bar stock for the caps. I think that's what I was using for my caps.

 

[Leon Husock]

One thing to keep in mind is the size of the end caps. Ideally you want these to upset as you weld up the can and not bow out so they have to be thick enough for this to be more likely. IIRC stock should be no more than 4:1(?) height to thickness, so if it's 6" tall, so you'd want 1.5" thick bar stock for the caps. I think that's what I was using for my caps.

Interesting, I'd never heard that. I always just use 1/8" flat stock (set into the can, not placed on top) and I've never had any trouble with it. If I used 1.5" thick end caps, wouldn't that hugely eat into the total space for the billet and I'd end up with a billet only 3" long?

 

[aareeyesee]

I'm Neil Kamimuras long form YouTube videos on the nakiri he goes over why he only uses flat dies on knives and it's pretty interesting. The long videos are also all good watching. He's funny and amazing with a hammer. He finishes his knives on the anvil thinner than most people grind them.

 

[weo]

Ok...1-1/2" might be a bit thicker than you need, but I think you get the idea. WIth a square can, I've never worried about it, but with these taller cans, there's a lot of room for the powder to squeeze out like a tube of toothpaste and not weld as good. IMO, of course.....
And I'm a blacksmith more than a bladesmith, so I tend to overbuild things.

 

[Leon Husock]

Ok...1-1/2" might be a bit thicker than you need, but I think you get the idea. WIth a square can, I've never worried about it, but with these taller cans, there's a lot of room for the powder to squeeze out like a tube of toothpaste and not weld as good. IMO, of course.....
And I'm a blacksmith more than a bladesmith, so I tend to overbuild things.

I've got 6" flat dies, so in theory if I'm applying pressure across the whole can to set the weld I think it should be okay. But probably I should do a test can that doesn't have mosaic Damascus pieces in it first lol.

 

[Jason Fry]

I've done rectangular cans with the pattern on the flats. I've also done some fairly complex multi-piece welds with the pattern on the flats.

Battleship Texas WIP

This is the beginning of what I hope will be my most epic knife to date. I suspect it'll take me 6 months minimum to get through the process. Given the complexity and the fact that I'm working with pure unobtainium, it seems like a good idea to record the WIP thread. Target is to finish in...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[Taz]

I know guys weld their own "can" using thin metal to weld "tiles" of mosaic damascus together for long pieces? They use thin mild steel and basically make up their own "can" to whatever size they need around the tiles, forge weld them and then grind the thin "can" off. Some of the steel even looked like sheet metal?

 

[Leon Husock]

I know guys weld their own "can" using thin metal to weld "tiles" of mosaic damascus together for long pieces? They use thin mild steel and basically make up their own "can" to whatever size they need around the tiles, forge weld them and then grind the thin "can" off. Some of the steel even looked like sheet metal?

I did something similar to this the only time I've made a tiled mosaic billet, except all I had was 3/16" flat bar and it took *forever* to grind it off lol. Next time I'm just gonna weld up all the seams and use kerosene (aka the belt-and-suspenders method).

I've done rectangular cans with the pattern on the flats. I've also done some fairly complex multi-piece welds with the pattern on the flats.

Battleship Texas WIP

This is the beginning of what I hope will be my most epic knife to date. I suspect it'll take me 6 months minimum to get through the process. Given the complexity and the fact that I'm working with pure unobtainium, it seems like a good idea to record the WIP thread. Target is to finish in...

www.bladeforums.com

This seems super cool! Have you had any particular troubles doing rectangular cans? Or is it pretty simple?

 

[Jason Fry]

No real problems. On one of them I did I lost track of the orientation because it ultimately squared up a little bit. Watch out for that. But if you keep it flat, you should be good.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

TIP:
When welding the handle on the canister with a directional pattern, put a line of weld metal an inch or so up the top and bottom side of the rebar handle. That way you always know where the top and bottom sides of the billet are in welding/squaring/compacting/drawing out.

Not a canister story, but similar:
Chris marks (RIP) used to make damascus orders for me as well as many others and knife companies. Once he messed up a custom suminagashi san-mai he was doing for me by losing track of the top of the billet after welding and squaring. I shipped him a batch of 204E, 52100, 15N20, 1084, and WI. He was going to make suminagashi from the various metals and then make san-mai with a 52100 core. When forging/drawing one of the final billet, he turned it sideways by accident and drew it out 90° off where it should be. By the time he realized the error it was too late. The resulting pattern was useless, with the soft part on the edge and the hard part a stripe down the middle. There was no way to re-square it and keep the core straight. Chris was one who could figure out a solution for most mistakes. So he drew it out the rest of the way, cut it up and stacked it with pure nickel strips, then folded it many times to make what he calculated as1300-layer damascus. He then re-did the san-mai with a new 52100 core. A lot of extra work, but a good result. I made a daisho and several tanto from the final bar.

 

[Leon Husock]

TIP:
When welding the handle on the canister with a directional pattern, put a line of weld metal an inch or so up the top and bottom side of the rebar handle. That way you always know where the top and bottom sides of the billet are in welding/squaring/compacting/drawing out.

Good tip, I'll keep that in mind. For this one I think I should be okay because my plan is to use a 1x2x6" can, so as long as I make sure the wide side always stays wide it shouldn't be too hard to keep track.

 

[weo]

Not sure if this is helpful, but here's a picture of one of my cans. 4" tall with 3/4" stock on the ends, so not quite at the 4:1 ratio for upsetting

Oh, and notice the stubs for the tongs. The triangle shows which side the edge is.

 

[Leon Husock]

Ahh interesting. I'm working with a 1x2" can that's 6" long with much thinner walls, and the pattern should be the same on both flats so I'm not so concerned about orientation. I'm lazy and a mediocre welder so I always just buy tubing to make my cans instead of building them from flat stock.

 

[A.McPherson]

TIP:
When welding the handle on the canister with a directional pattern, put a line of weld metal an inch or so up the top and bottom side of the rebar handle. That way you always know where the top and bottom sides of the billet are in welding/squaring/compacting/drawing out.

I've seen other guys use a 90° bend on the handle end to indicate "down" as well. Not sure which is my easier, but i'd think that the bend would be more obvious to see/feel without having to fiddle too much.

 

[Salem Straub]

The 90 degree bend on a handle works great. Not only does it serve as a visual and tactile aid for billet indexing while forging, it can be used to help accurately clock resquares for mosaics, and affords a lot more control over the billet when forging.
As for can aspect ratio... I've done a lot of flat-can welding. Tray type mosaics or canoes as some call them, where a lot of small straight-edged pattern elements can be combined with or without powder to form what is effectively a monotile that will be displayed on the knife in the same orientation that it's assembled into the final billet. I.e. a side-grain mosaic. It works well, if you get some things right- the larger and flatter your dies the better. I do it on a hammer, my dies are 4x11" which is ideal but if yours are smaller just try to get as much billet surface area as possible on the die at a time and cover the entire surface evenly with as few blows as possible. What you want is for things inside to upset weld into each other, more than draw in any particular direction. A good 5 min soak AT welding heat between the first few heats really helps as well. Also you want to keep it hot, don't forge it below a welding heat during the first few short heats. If you meet all of those conditions you can really get a good clean piece of steel from the process. Including edge bars inside the can, with the flat sides being made of say .070" 15n20, can really helps the sides remain stiff and restrain the contents during welding. They can be hardenable patterned material, or sacrificial material to be removed afterwards.
I tend to do this and weld the can up to the contents under the hammer, then grind off, rather than resist it with paint or used foil. I think the can provides better support for the contents if it welds to them- then I throw it on the belt mod surface grinder and rip it off with 36 grit. Pretty easy that way. Check my Youtube if you wanna see all of this done with further explanation.

 

[weo]

I think the can provides better support for the contents if it welds to them-

Great thinking, something I never thought of.
Kilz works great as a release, but I think I might stop using it now....

 

[weo]

double post, sorry