ApexUltra: Ultimate Kitchen Knife or Ultimate PITA?

Sando

Sando

Knife Maker
Joined
Jul 4, 2002
Messages
1,148
I think the answer is: Both.

I just completed my first ApexUltra gyuto. I must say it was hard to grind. In the fully annealed state, I put in a distal taper with my SGA. Almost completely wore out a brand new 'gator' x300 belt. (I can usually get several blades from one of those.) That should have been my first tell on what came next.

After hardening to 63.5hrc, I started on the main bevels with a 60 grit. "Gee this is going slow." So I put on a 36 grit. Even that was much slower than normal. Then I noticed how loaded up the belt was getting. It's probably me, but brand new 60 and 120 grit belts would get a few passes before they stopped cutting from loading/glazing over. I had to keep cleaning the belts with a file card. Forget getting anywhere with 220 belts.

Finally, I tried a 45 micron diamond belt with lots of spray. That worked just fine. Really well actually.

Hand sanding? Similarly tough going. Just had to swap to fresh paper very often. Then I tried diamond polishing paper. Again, that worked great.

Moral of the story, for me? Just use wet, diamond abrasives and enjoy.

As for the finished product?

Man does this stuff take an edge!!!! You know that "make a paper thin tomato slice without holding the tomato" test? Never had it go so easy! I can't wait to see how it performs in kitchen over time.


Not much has been posted on this steel. I'm interested in others' experiences.


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Wating for the thinner stock to become available. I can't imagine it being that tough to work. It's like 52100 and Blue#1 had a baby!
 
Only did a test coupon with a scrap today. I noticed the decarb went much deeper than I expected .01-.015 thou even with anti scale compound

Depending on your heat treat I’d be willing to guess your difficulty in grinding might be due to the blade being harder than the Rockwell tester indicated. I did 3 tests on my coupon.
Each time grind down until the dimple was gone from the previous test and I started with cleaned steel with a few thou already removed. My results started at 60 hrc then 63.5 then 65.1 I would guess if I ground down a bit further I might hit 66-67 which is what the data sheet called for.
 
It is tricky to work but worth it.
High attainable hardness.
Better toughness at high hardness than any other steel.
Takes a keener edge than any steel I’ve used.
Better edge holding than any carbon or low alloy steel.
Super clean, extremely low impurity level.

Hoss
 
This is the first I have heard about this steel. What is the composition of it?
 
Thescrawnylumberjack said:
Only did a test coupon with a scrap today. I noticed the decarb went much deeper than I expected .01-.015 thou even with anti scale compound

Depending on your heat treat I’d be willing to guess your difficulty in grinding might be due to the blade being harder than the Rockwell tester indicated. I did 3 tests on my coupon.
Each time grind down until the dimple was gone from the previous test and I started with cleaned steel with a few thou already removed. My results started at 60 hrc then 63.5 then 65.1 I would guess if I ground down a bit further I might hit 66-67 which is what the data sheet called for.
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You might be right. I was testing on the tang and didn't grind it down very far. The blade certainly acts harder than 63

BluntCut MetalWorks BluntCut MetalWorks wow, that's really cool. It must be the most expensive axe head in history too.

Judging from the responses, I have to assume ApexUltra isn't used much by us guys here.

It might give you a marketing advantage ;) However, I'd have to charge a lot more for it. 3' of 26C3 is ~$40. ApexUltra is ~$125, plus using more belts.

PS, I also built a test blade for destruction testing. The edge is unbelievable. As D DevinT says, "It takes a keen edge." That might be the understatement of the year. It whittles wood like it was butter.
 
Where I could see it being an asset is on a fine slicer, like a yanagi-ba or gyuto. HTed at Rc 65 it will have a very tough edge - it should stay crazy sharp a long time. These blades command a high price, so the steel cost would not be an issue. Might make myself one for fun.

Then again, I don't have any problem with those knives in Hitachi white/blue/26C3.
 
Very good steel. I’ve made a dozen or so last year. If you have worked with high alloy wear resistant steels then anything else “easier” to process.

Apex ultra

A/U laminated

It think apex ultra is best suited as a laminated ateel

But I’ve had several customer request it as mono steel

A/U 270

Ultimate kitchen knife steel? I still think z wear/cru wear is
 
Very good low alloy steel. It is used quite a lot in custom kitchen knives now. In this application it seems to be better than 52100 as it stays tougher at higher hardness ranges and is more wear resistant as well.
 
I have some I am hoping to forge down soon for kitchen knife stock. May do san mai with some of it, too, but I am pretty new to forge welding! How does it compare to Magnacut, S90V or CPM 20CV grinding it post HT?
 
Taz said:
I have some I am hoping to forge down soon for kitchen knife stock. May do san mai with some of it, too, but I am pretty new to forge welding! How does it compare to Magnacut, S90V or CPM 20CV grinding it post HT?
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Surprisingly I found Apex Ultra to be very time consuming to grind post HT. I honestly think grinding aeb-l or nitro-v is easier to grind post HT and both steels have far better edge retention in my own testing so I haven’t really used apex much after the first batch. If I was going to use apex I’d definitely use it as a core steel in San mai but it’s not a very forgiving steel to forge or forge weld so if you are newer to those areas maybe set it aside and save it for a later date.
 
I've had a 1m bar since Pops got it from the first batch and keep eyeing it! LOL, guess it may sit and wait a bit longer! I was going to either forge it thinner and do stock removal, or san mai, forge it thinner and stock removal from there. I am surprised that AEB-L and Nitro V have better edge retention though!
 
Joshua Fisher said:
Surprisingly I found Apex Ultra to be very time consuming to grind post HT. I honestly think grinding aeb-l or nitro-v is easier to grind post HT and both steels have far better edge retention in my own testing so I haven’t really used apex much after the first batch. If I was going to use apex I’d definitely use it as a core steel in San mai but it’s not a very forgiving steel to forge or forge weld so if you are newer to those areas maybe set it aside and save it for a later date.
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aeb-l has better edge retention in your testing? Pls share more about this and any details, I'm interested to know how you determine this
 
HSC /// said:
aeb-l has better edge retention in your testing? Pls share more about this and any details, I'm interested to know how you determine this
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Tested identical shaped chef knives with the same edge geometry and sharpening cutting 1/2” rope on an end grain cutting board until the edge was completely dull and would no longer cut paper (checking the edge everyone 100 cuts). The apex ultra knife at 65-66rc made 1900 cuts, the aeb-l blade at 61-62rc did 2700 cuts, nitro-v at 61-62 did 2900 cuts. Both the nitro-v and aeb-l blades were able to be stropped by hand to bring the edges back, the apex blade had to go back to a stone to re-establish the edge due to some micro chipping. Same rope for all of the testing and went into the testing as unbiased as possible and was looking to see how far I could push each steel. I should add all of the steels were heat treating following the recommended protocols for each steel as provided either by the apex team, or NJSB which is where I got the two stainless steels.
 
I’m the on only one retailer of ApexUltra in south east Asia and have sold over 200 bars in the past few months.

The feedback I got from makers is ApexUltra hold an edge noticeable better than 52100, D2 and 440c in kitchen/wood chopping while being easier to sharpen and take much nicer edge than most hight alloy.
 
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