Appropriate edge performance?

mark greenman

mark greenman

Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
662
Hey all, I figured I'd ask the experts on this one. I'm more of a knife guy, but recently purchased a VTAC tomahawk. I like it a great deal, feels great in the hands, and seems well constructed, but I'm having issues with the edge.

Mine arrived very dull by knife standards, totally unable to cut paper or paracord without extreme force.

So, I sent it back to ATC, who have great customer service btw, to be re-sharpened. I didn't want it shaving sharp, just sharp enough to cut paracord, but still strong enough to resist deformation.

Well, it returned, and its sharp enough to cut paracord, but not paper, which I assumed was a strong edge.

Well, I went out to the dumpsters today for some testing, and started hacking up this old couch, specifically its sturdy wooden frame. The VTAC chopped pretty well.

However, upon examination of the face of the blade, there are small chips, rolled edges, and places where the tip of the edge is smashed flat. This was after about 20 hard swings into the wood. The spike, which was not sharpened, did not get damaged in any way.

So, is this normal wear and tare for a Tomahawk edge, or did I screw up when I had them sharpen the thing? How sharp "should" a Tomahawk be? Will these chips affect practical performance, or am I just being a prude?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark
 
if a hawk has a radiussed edge, you can get away with having them pretty sharp usually - but that doesn't necessarily mean you should do that IMHO.


a knife is not a hawk, and a hawk is not a knife - they are more like a pair; - nothing better to feel than a proper hawk in one hand and something like a khukri or bowie in the other....


if you were a hawk-preferring sort, and tried hawks stuff with a knife, you might be facing a similar disappointment.

perhaps you agree.


i don't like sharpening the hawks that i build for Investors (unless asked) because everyone will have a different idea of what they want (which is great, as far as i am concerned, brother).


i like to hone the hawks down to a fine zero edge, then "break" the edge on the sweet spot to be rather steep and tough, with the parts of the rest of the bit staying rather fine.

that said, i don't chop trees that are thicker than my leg with my hawks unless ...well ...i just don't do it, there is no reason to that i can find, when you are using your head with a proper hawk....

if folks want to such things with their hawks, that's fine, of course - just not my way.

anyways,

the morphing edge i just described is quick and easy to do, and to repair if necessary - the more you strop it and keep it in shape and dote on it in the beginning, the more it becomes a lovely tough convex edge, which is hard to beat in the long term.

.........

there might've been nails in that couch frame to explain some of the damage to the edge - 'sounds like you handled it with no sweat - excellent.


good to hear ATC is taking care of folks.

hawks aren't for everyone.

vec
 
So, what does that mean? Should I leave the edge as is, attempt to re-sharpen it, or is there something wrong with my Hawk?

There were staples and stuff in the wood, but I was under the impression that these things were designed for cutting through sheet metal and cinderblocks.
 
With the edge they come with they can withstand a lot, I've cut through metal fences and a bunch of other crap with mine with no deformation... a lot of stuff you wouldn't do normally with a hawk If I had it sharpened/thinned I would be a lot more careful with it after sharpening as I would most hawks. I definitely wouldn't cut up an old couch with a normal hawk (tho a factory VTAC w/ the original edge I'm sure would take it). I'd say have em sharpen it again or go at it yourself then use it more carefully. Should hold up fine to throwing and normal chopping with a finer edge.
 
But what if I want it for hard use? Should just keep using it as is, or will the chips/rolling/flattening of the edge reduce its performance? How can I return it to its old level of durability?

Frankly, the old couch was supposed to be just a "get your feet wet" test, not nearly what I had in mind in terms of qualifying as hard use or abuse. I'm looking for it to still be able to cut through sheetmetal; the only reason I had it sharpened was that the grind was totally uneven and dull when I got it, and it was advertised as "extremely sharp for its intended angle," which I thought meant sharp enough to cut paper at the very least.

Very frustrated.
 
hey mark, what i would do is sharpen it up at a very steep angle around 25-30 degrees per side, it will cut paracord and anything else you can throw at it, at least thats been MY experience with hawks,
good luck,
Garrett
 
Hi Mark. For your uses, I would go at it with a file/dremel, etc. to repair/reprofile the edge and then put a not-too-fine convex edge on it, like Vec suggested. Think slightly sharpened pry bar. I just got done doing this to a cheap, heavy French-style poled head that was very unevenly ground from one tip to the other (easily 1/32" wide at one end and "normal" axe sharpness on the other). It took me a total of about 30 minutes and I would have no problems wacking into some sheet metal with it now AND it will cut paper fairly cleanly. I've thrown it a few times and it sticks deep too. Would I use it for finer work like skinning or carving? Does it shave arm hair like my Coal Creek Forge spike hawk? Nope, but for heavy hard use, this bad boy would handle it.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing and how it turns out.
 
Well, all I can give is my experience with one hawk.

I had Vector sharpen the one I ordered from him. It was not sharp by "knife standards" -- would not cut paper, for instance. I didn't touch the edge before using it. it sunk in all the way to the eye splitting some very, very hard birch and oak, and on a real hard swing popped the rounds in half with one shot. It also chopped just fine, about what I expected, anyway -- better than my Battle Mistress, and not as well as my kukri (but my kukri isn't much shorter than the hawk and weighs over 3.5 pounds). So I wouldn't worry too much about making it shaving sharp. It's a chopping tool -- chopping wood and "meat", it's not for shaving or delicate work (although I did try the hawk at fuzz sticks, and although not great at it, it did work, and also made veyr nice tinder chips -- all the while not being able to cut paper.

It's heresy on the WS&S forum, but blades do not have to be able to shave to perform, and perform well.
 
I kept the factory edge on the VTAC's that I play with and they have held up very well.
They have been thrown, used to cut roots in stump removal, cut kindling etc. When touching up the edge I try to maintain the factory profile.
 
Dusty One said:
I kept the factory edge on the VTAC's that I play with and they have held up very well.
They have been thrown, used to cut roots in stump removal, cut kindling etc. When touching up the edge I try to maintain the factory profile.
Click to expand...
Ditto on that. I left the factory edge on mine because I know what it's meant to do. It's the hawk that stays in the back of my car because you never know what you might have to cut through. A more traditional-style hawk will have a more narrow grind and therefore be more adept at biting deeply into softer things (and slicing paper/paracord), but will also be more susceptible to edge rolling.

Just a side note, a rolled edge is good, a chipped edge is bad. Rolled edges are easy to fix with a minute or so with a medium stone.

Well, there's my $0.02. Take it or leave it.
 
Lots of staples in couches, probably helped out with the edge results you got.

Now, on what to do. I'd recommend following the advice above, except for the dremel part unless you're really skilled with one. The file will work well, but it could work quickly enough to be unforgiving if you're off on your angle for more than just a few strikes. So, I'd recommend an axe sharpening puck, and a convex edge at a fairly obtuse angle. Something like 3/32 of metal behind your edge.

I've cut car steel with triple quenched S7 and 1095 that had very thick edges, with about the same end result as you got cutting up a couch, possibly less, I'd have to see the pictures. I'd warrant my hawks had better steel, but I'm pretty sure you can also take from this analogy that the edge geometries had as much to do with the results as the steel. So if you can get a good, thick, convex edge on that you shouldn't have much more problem.

If you would, once you've got a good thick edge on it, go out and see if that couch is still there, and if it is, give it a good beating to see if we've given you good advice.
 
i think the ductility of the couch staples is probably going to be more damaging than something relatively-brittle, such as chain link fence or sheet metal.

vec
 
Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm feeling much better about it now.

As for sharpening, I don't know how to convex an edge. I do have an edge pro sharpener, will that work, or will it make the edge too brittle/thin? I'm trying to make the edge as durable as possible, don't care about how it slices paracord anymore.

Thanks!
Mark
 
a lot of folks get the edge about where they want it, and then use a mouse pad backing sandpaper to get a nice convex geometry.

i spray-adhesive sand paper onto tongue depressors and shape them just like using a flexible file.

just try either one of these, and something in your head will see what to do almost instantly.

vec
 
So, sharpen out the chips, then rub back and forth over the edge w/ the sandpaper mousepad? What grit sandpaper should I use, and how long should I sand for?

Thanks again,
Mark
 
mark greenman said:
How sharp "should" a Tomahawk be?
Click to expand...

It's easy to give a tomahawk a meaty hair-popping edge. I don't think there's any reason to go with a "not quite sharp" edge.

The problem is that teaching someone convex sharpening in person is very easy but teaching the process with just words and pictures online is very hard. If you don't like the whole convex thing all you really need to maintain a flat beveled hawk edge is a good single-cut file; this will fix chips such easily but can also make the edge very sharp.
 
Ah, the horrifying dilemma. To sharpen or not to sharpen. I feel your pain. I like my sharp things to be hair popping sharp. I used to sharpen my hawks thus. Not anymore though. My advise is to not sharpen your hawk until it won't chop wood or cut through sheet metal well. One of the great things about a hawk is that it can be awfully dull (by knife standards) but still be an amazingly effective tool. When i used my hawk often I would get it very sharp then use, then sharpen again...soon i would run out of hawk. So, I would only sharpen when it wouldn't bite deep into wood. Some friends would say, man that's dull. I would then toss it into a log round or chop it into a log and say, it's plenty sharp for what I want it to do.
 
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