Arctic Fox/Fine India

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P_A_S_1

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These two stones seem pretty similar, both 400 grit, are there reasons to choose one over the other?
 
The India is a grease-filled stone from the factory - meaning it was mfr'd to be used with oil. This isn't to say it can't be used with water. But on a grease-filled stone, water will tend to bead up & roll off the surface of the India. By the description on the Baryonyx site (FortyTwoBlades' site), the Arctic fox is said to absorb water readily - so, I'd assume it's not a filled stone. Depending if you have a preference for oil or water in lubricating the stone, that might be something to consider.

I don't have the Arctic Fox stone - I'm betting it's nice and I've been intrigued by it. But I've been reluctant to spend much money on these things lately. I do have the IB-8 India (coarse/fine 8"), and I've liked it quite a lot.
 
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Thanks. Wondering if there is a performance difference between them that is notable. Cuts faster, more refined edge, glazes less, etc.
 
The Arctic Fox cuts faster and produces a finer finish but wears a little faster, though still slowly. It's a medium-hard bond as opposed to the India stone's hard bond, and it is unfilled, allowing you to use water or oil according to your preference. Because it more readily sheds grit it will be less prone to glazing under equal lubrication, tool being worked, and pressure.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The India is a grease-filled stone from the factory - meaning it was mfr'd to be used with oil. This isn't to say it can't be used with water. But on a grease-filled stone, water will tend to bead up & roll off the surface of the India. By the description on the Baryonyx site (FortyTwoBlades' site), the Arctic fox is said to absorb water readily - so, I'd assume it's not a filled stone. Depending if you have a preference for oil or water in lubricating the stone, that might be something to consider.

I don't have the Arctic Fox stone - I'm betting it's nice and I've been intrigued by it. But I've been reluctant to spend much money on these things lately. I do have the IB-8 India (coarse/fine 8"), and I've liked it quite a lot.
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Has the factory lubricant been built in to Norton India stones always, or did they begin this at a certain point in time? (Most/all of my stones are from the ‘70’s and ‘mid-80’s and I’m wondering if they are pre-lubticated because I never had that impression.)
 
annr said:
Has the factory lubricant been built in to Norton India stones always, or did they begin this at a certain point in time? (Most/all of my stones are from the ‘70’s and ‘mid-80’s and I’m wondering if they are pre-lubticated because I never had that impression.)
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I'm under the impression the India has been oil / grease-filled for a long time, maybe going back 40-50 years at least. I've never seen or read online they've ever been any different in that regard. Some old Norton literature going back to early 20th century even mentioned melting petroleum jelly into the stone to minimize drainage of oil applied for sharpening. So the idea in itself, of filling the stone with grease, has been in Norton's history for a very long time.

My Norton India is relatively new-generation, from just a few years ago. It came in a box with an instruction flyer for the use of the stone, and both the flyer and the box were somewhat stained with oil/grease when I received it. And testing the stone with a little water on the surface will show quickly if there's an oil / grease presence.

I don't think the factory oil / grease is a lubricant for sharpening, per se. Its greater benefit is in minimizing the soaking up & draining of additional oil applied for sharpening purposes. Other 'dry' stones of this type will drink up a LOT of oil, and drain it quickly, if the stone isn't otherwise filled with some grease. When filled this way, it takes much less oil to adequately lubricate the stone for use.
 
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Yes, the grease will technically lubricate, but its chief intended role is as a buffer to take up most of the stone's capacity so that it's essentially a "splash and go" stone but for oil.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
My Norton India is relatively new-generation, from just a few years ago. It came in a box with an instruction flyer for the use of the stone, and both the flyer and the box were somewhat stained with oil/grease when I received it. And testing the stone with a little water on the surface will show quickly if there's an oil / grease presence.

I don't think the factory oil / grease is a lubricant for sharpening, per se. It's greater benefit is in minimizing the soaking up & draining of additional oil applied for sharpening purposes. Other 'dry' stones of this type will drink up a LOT of oil, and drain it quickly, if the stone isn't otherwise filled with some grease. When filled this way, it takes much less oil to adequately lubricate the stone for use.
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I bought my India just a couple of month ago. Mine is not a "Made in the USA" stone (there seem to be two versions). It came neither with an instruction flyer nor was the stone respectively the box greasy. The stone felt like any other non-prefilled stone. But it is definitively filled because otherwise it would act like a dry sponge.

To quote the instructions given on the package:" Norton Sharpening Stones are made of highest quality materials and are unequaled for long sharpening life, maintenance of shape and smooth cut. To obtain best results, always lubricate you stone with genuine Norton Sharpening Stone Oil. You can also use tap water in place of oil".

As my stone's surface is not greasy I tried it with soapy water / water + dish detergent. Until now I haven't used the stone very often. But for me it works so far. Water does not soak in very quickly but you need to some additional water from time to time because it will soak in (although a small amount). That is my impression at least.
Oil will give you most likely better results (will be true for any oilstone like an Arkansas stone, too).

The stone's filling is not meant as a lubricant. Like FortyTwoBlades said. All it does is you don't need so much oil initially until the stone is saturated.
 
Papilio said:
I bought my India just a couple of month ago. Mine is not a "Made in the USA" stone (there seem to be two versions). It came neither with an instruction flyer nor was the stone respectively the box greasy. The stone felt like any other non-prefilled stone. But it is definitively filled because otherwise it would act like a dry sponge.

To quote the instructions given on the package:" Norton Sharpening Stones are made of highest quality materials and are unequaled for long sharpening life, maintenance of shape and smooth cut. To obtain best results, always lubricate you stone with genuine Norton Sharpening Stone Oil. You can also use tap water in place of oil".

As my stone's surface is not greasy I tried it with soapy water / water + dish detergent. Until now I haven't used the stone very often. But for me it works so far. Water does not soak in very quickly but you need to some additional water from time to time because it will soak in (although a small amount). That is my impression at least.
Oil will give you most likely better results (will be true for any oilstone like an Arkansas stone, too).

The stone's filling is not meant as a lubricant. Like FortyTwoBlades said. All it does is you don't need so much oil initially until the stone is saturated.
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These India stones also won't appear very 'oily' if they've ever been washed, such as with dish soap & water. I've washed my India a couple times that way. Most of the obvious oil/grease at the surface will be cleaned up, doing it like that, and the stone will feel essentially 'dry' afterward, though the interior of the stone still resists the heavy drainage, indicating the stone is still filled. The earlier reference to the older India stones from the 1970s-80s made me wonder if they seemed 'dry' because they'd been cleaned at some time in the past. And even an oiled stone, if left to sit for a long time, will start to feel dry to the touch over time.

My India was made in Mexico, BTW. I don't have any earlier versions of them, so no frame of reference for comparison to the older stones.
 
I recently got Norton course/fine combo stone. It's clearly filled with an oil or grease that is solid at room temperature. I tried de-greasing mine to use as water stone as I dislike using oil. It was a significant pain in the butt and I have to wonder if it's going to perform as well with the grease out of it. Will know once I start using it more. The "fine" side seems fairly coarse maybe 400 ANSI 400?
 
RipD said:
I recently got Norton course/fine combo stone. It's clearly filled with an oil or grease that is solid at room temperature. I tried de-greasing mine to use as water stone as I dislike using oil. It was a significant pain in the butt and I have to wonder if it's going to perform as well with the grease out of it. Will know once I start using it more. The "fine" side seems fairly coarse maybe 400 ANSI 400?
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400 ANSI is actually fairly fine. It's roughly equivalent to a JIS 700 grit.
 
Yes, the '400' rating for the Fine India sounds about right. And whether that seems 'coarse' or 'fine' is dependent on one's own frame of reference or basis for comparison - whatever you're already used to. The Fine India starts out a little more 'coarse' when new, but then settles into something a bit finer after it's broken-in (which doesn't take long). I tend to classify that break-in into something like 320-360 when 'as new', then settling into the 400-range when it's broken in. This is fairly consistent with Norton's own classification for that stone (their chart is shown below). For the steels I like to sharpen on that stone, most of which are either simple carbon steel like 1095 or CV or low-alloy stainless like 420HC, the 'Fine' India leaves a great working edge - which is usually about as 'Fine' as ever want.

If you want to use your Fine India with water... you might just wash it a few times with dish soap & warm/hot water. I've sometimes cleaned my stone this way - and after the fact, it's not as prone to beading up & shedding water on the surface. You may not need to fully de-grease the stone all the way through, in order to use it with water (or dish soap & water, as some also have done).
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I still struggle with the Norton chart linked above. As far as I know there is a difference between CAMI and FEPA P (what is given in the chart) - both used for coated abrasives - and ANSI and FEPA F (bonded abrasives).
The chart gives a (new) Fine India as 35 Micron. Whereas 400 ANSI would be ~ 22 Micron.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
400 ANSI is actually fairly fine. It's roughly equivalent to a JIS 700 grit.
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Good point. Hard to speak about grit since it's all over the map. When I have time I can check the scratch pattern, which is maybe a better indicator?

Obsessed with Edges said:
Yes, the '400' rating for the Fine India sounds about right. And whether that seems 'coarse' or 'fine' is dependent on one's own frame of reference or basis for comparison - whatever you're already used to. The Fine India starts out a little more 'coarse' when new, but then settles into something a bit finer after it's broken-in (which doesn't take long). I tend to classify that break-in into something like 320-360 when 'as new', then settling into the 400-range when it's broken in. This is fairly consistent with Norton's own classification for that stone (their chart is shown below). For the steels I like to sharpen on that stone, most of which are either simple carbon steel like 1095 or CV or low-alloy stainless like 420HC, the 'Fine' India leaves a great working edge - which is usually about as 'Fine' as ever want.

If you want to use your Fine India with water... you might just wash it a few times with dish soap & warm/hot water. I've sometimes cleaned my stone this way - and after the fact, it's not as prone to beading up & shedding water on the surface. You may not need to fully de-grease the stone all the way through, in order to use it with water (or dish soap & water, as some also have done).
xnPDxhu.jpg
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Thanks. Too late on not degreasing it. I tried soaking with dish detergent. After a few hours I would have a layer of sludge on the surface I removed with a paper towel. Did this 3 times. Finally put it in some hot water on the stove - not boiling - with some detergent. Got more grease out. Too much work and probably not necessary. It's still not oil free, but it's no longer greasy feeling.

Have only take one knife to it so far. It's clearly a hard stone. Doesn't cut as quickly as I was expecting, but it cuts well. I think the coarse side will do well for reprofiling. I'll use the fine side more and see how it goes. My first edge off the 400 side would not cleanly cut a paper towel which is my go to metric for a decent edge. I'll have to work with it more and see if I need to change how I sharpen with it. I was also in a hurry, so that didn't help.
 
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