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Are all 1095's created equal?
- Thread starter SVTFreak
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I'm looking forward to hearing the answers to this question by the folks who are knowledgeable about this.
I've noticed similar differences between my GEC, Schrade, and Camillus knives, but hadn't given it much thought until now.
I've read that the heat treatment given to the steel affects its ability to attain and hold a razor edge. That varies with maker. I have no idea whether it also affects the character or rate of development of patina.
I've noticed similar differences between my GEC, Schrade, and Camillus knives, but hadn't given it much thought until now.
I've read that the heat treatment given to the steel affects its ability to attain and hold a razor edge. That varies with maker. I have no idea whether it also affects the character or rate of development of patina.
black mamba
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GEC's 1095 is about 2 points on average higher hardness than Moore Maker's. Heat treatment must have something to do with it, as the steel is the same.
Cory Hess
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I asked a similar question a while back. The answer I got was that different batches of steel will be slightly different, the steel is made using ranges of ingredients so two blades with 1095 might have slightly different steels. Also, the heat treating affects how the chemicals are dispersed within the steel, so even if the two blades came from the same batch of steel being from different batches of heat treatment might cause variances in their properties. Also, the hardness they're treated to will affect things. On top of this, the finish of the blade will affect how it develops a patina.
In short, no two knives are going to patina the same. Knives from the same manufacturer are going to be similar because they'll typically use the same steel supplier, heat treatment, and finish across different runs. However, getting the same steel from two different manufacturers will probably result in small differences in performance, potentially large differences. Hope this helps.
In short, no two knives are going to patina the same. Knives from the same manufacturer are going to be similar because they'll typically use the same steel supplier, heat treatment, and finish across different runs. However, getting the same steel from two different manufacturers will probably result in small differences in performance, potentially large differences. Hope this helps.
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Just to add.... the finish affects patina greatly. Polished surfaces are generally more resistant to oxidation.
SVTFreak
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I thought so too. But the polished Moore makers are developing faster. And prettier. Their patina has a beautiful blue/purple color.
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Patina will happen regardless of the finish. Polished finishes resist destructive, red RUSTING on a wet/dirty blade a bit better, because they leave fewer and smaller recesses in the surface for moisture, dirt, acids and salts to cling to or within, all of which contribute to rusting. 'Patina', on the other hand, which comes as a result of exposure to the air (oxygen) primarily, is still going to happen, because the polished surface is still just steel exposed to air, and will react to the oxygen exactly the same way.
Having said all that, different versions of 1095 will actually be different in ways that can affect how they rust or oxidize. Differences in the purity of the steel, and in the heat treat & hardness can impact it. I've noticed on a couple of my Case knives (CV is a modified 1095), when forcing patina with a heated vinegar/water mix, there's a distinct, sharp transition to a darker patina back near to and including the tang of the blade. It just so happens that Case anneals (softens) that portion a little bit to facilitate crinking and other adjustments for fitting into the handle on multiblade folders. Coincidence?? Maybe, but it's potentially very revealing.
The mention of the Moore Maker knives is interesting to me as well. I have two or three Moore Makers that were made by Bear & Sons, in the period after Camillus shut down (they were previously making these particular patterns for MM). The 1095 in these knives has a darker look than other 1095 folders I compare them to, including one earlier-vintage Camillus-made knife in the same pattern from Moore Maker. They're also disappointingly soft at the edge, and don't hold a fine edge virtually at all. So, to answer the original question: in what I've seen, 1095 can be radically different, and can also represent some of the best or worst in blades, depending on where it came from and who worked it.
David
Having said all that, different versions of 1095 will actually be different in ways that can affect how they rust or oxidize. Differences in the purity of the steel, and in the heat treat & hardness can impact it. I've noticed on a couple of my Case knives (CV is a modified 1095), when forcing patina with a heated vinegar/water mix, there's a distinct, sharp transition to a darker patina back near to and including the tang of the blade. It just so happens that Case anneals (softens) that portion a little bit to facilitate crinking and other adjustments for fitting into the handle on multiblade folders. Coincidence?? Maybe, but it's potentially very revealing.
The mention of the Moore Maker knives is interesting to me as well. I have two or three Moore Makers that were made by Bear & Sons, in the period after Camillus shut down (they were previously making these particular patterns for MM). The 1095 in these knives has a darker look than other 1095 folders I compare them to, including one earlier-vintage Camillus-made knife in the same pattern from Moore Maker. They're also disappointingly soft at the edge, and don't hold a fine edge virtually at all. So, to answer the original question: in what I've seen, 1095 can be radically different, and can also represent some of the best or worst in blades, depending on where it came from and who worked it.
David
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Hardness definitely affects patina development. Knives that are differentially heat treated color up differently from the harder portions to the softer portions. This is easily visible in blades treated to reveal hamon. Even with the same level and type of finish the harder and softer portions are revealed with an enchant. Hope this helps.
1095 is a steel that will show hamon very nicely and is chosen by many custom makers for this additional quality.
Chris
1095 is a steel that will show hamon very nicely and is chosen by many custom makers for this additional quality.
Chris
arizonaranchman
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I've noticed this also. The polished blades on some of the Northfield line models takes a patina differently than a matte finish.
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Thank you...while I sometimes think that I understand what happens on a very basic level (carbon steel rusts, so develop a patina to protect it), I don't always realize why it happens.
Ill echo whats already been said. Hardness and blade finish are the determining factors as far as patina is concerned.
As far as real world use, FOR ME, with 1095 the higher the hardness, the better. Sharpening is still a breeze in the very high 50s, and you also get better edge retention that approaches some of the lower end "super steels".
As far as real world use, FOR ME, with 1095 the higher the hardness, the better. Sharpening is still a breeze in the very high 50s, and you also get better edge retention that approaches some of the lower end "super steels".
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I've never heard of any particular superiority of Western's older carbon steel blades, though I've also never heard anything particularly bad about them. I take that to mean it's probably at least decent, at the worst.
I have an old Western L48A fixed blade, given to me by my Dad back in the late '60s or very early '70s, I think as a Christmas present. It might be the very first knife I owned, so it has great sentimental value to me. Up until just a couple years ago, I'd never attempted any serious sharpening of it. The factory edge was very, very thick. When I finally did undertake thinning it out recently, I've found it doesn't seem to hold a fine edge very well at all. Seems very brittle and/or coarse-grained, and any truly shaving-sharp edge that I give it quickly crumbles or breaks away, leaving a workably 'utility sharp' edge behind at least. The steel may be hard, as I've noticed it's fairly stubborn to grind & thin out; but, due to how it seems not to hold a fine edge very well, perhaps it's a little too hard for it's own good. I have no idea what type of steel it is, whether 1095 or something else; I have patinated it with a vinegar & hot water mix, so I know it's not a stainless steel.
My own favorite for the best 1095 I've seen is in Schrade USA's older blades, including Schrade-Walden era knives. They hardened them to near/above 60HRC, very fine-grained and with great springy temper. Takes and holds a shaving edge beautifully, and very easily at that.
David
I have an old Western L48A fixed blade, given to me by my Dad back in the late '60s or very early '70s, I think as a Christmas present. It might be the very first knife I owned, so it has great sentimental value to me. Up until just a couple years ago, I'd never attempted any serious sharpening of it. The factory edge was very, very thick. When I finally did undertake thinning it out recently, I've found it doesn't seem to hold a fine edge very well at all. Seems very brittle and/or coarse-grained, and any truly shaving-sharp edge that I give it quickly crumbles or breaks away, leaving a workably 'utility sharp' edge behind at least. The steel may be hard, as I've noticed it's fairly stubborn to grind & thin out; but, due to how it seems not to hold a fine edge very well, perhaps it's a little too hard for it's own good. I have no idea what type of steel it is, whether 1095 or something else; I have patinated it with a vinegar & hot water mix, so I know it's not a stainless steel.
My own favorite for the best 1095 I've seen is in Schrade USA's older blades, including Schrade-Walden era knives. They hardened them to near/above 60HRC, very fine-grained and with great springy temper. Takes and holds a shaving edge beautifully, and very easily at that.
David
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My Western Boy Scout knife is a bird/trout pattern. It is an excellent camping and kitchen knife. It has a flat grind with an almost zero bevel from the factory. Takes and holds a good edge, no chipping. My knife's steel is not coarse, but what you'd expect for cutlery. It readily takes a patina and rust 
(boys are boys) however now I keep it shiny with Flitz.
I have one really well used Schrade premium stockman from the 1940s. It does have an excellent steel which is harder than most, it's really tough to sharpen the old punch. For the blades, though, they easily take and hold a shaving edge.
(boys are boys) however now I keep it shiny with Flitz. I have one really well used Schrade premium stockman from the 1940s. It does have an excellent steel which is harder than most, it's really tough to sharpen the old punch. For the blades, though, they easily take and hold a shaving edge.