Are ceramic stones good as starter stones?

W

woyen

Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
3
Hi everyone,

While researching knife sharpening I learned a lot from this forum. I currently have a ceramic rod in the kitchen and a work sharp knife and tool sharpener. So far they have served me quite well but I wanted to give sharpening on stones a good try because my work sharp takes quite a lot of metal from my knives, and for my cheap knives that was fine but now I've been buying somewhat nicer knives and I want to sharpen them properly.

So while researching I came across ceramic stones and what I like about them is that they last very long. I like the idea of buying sharpening stones that can last me more than a decade with moderate use.

I was considering both the spyderco and the shapton pro stones. Maybe one coarse shapton stone and a medium + fine spyderco, or all shapton stones (not sure which ones are better).

Do you guys think this is a good idea or should I just go for cheaper aluminum oxide stones (I have no idea what the lifetime of these stones are though)?

Also, how do you best take care of ceramic stones? My ceramic rod I clean with soap and that works reasonably well (it still has some grey streaks on it, but it is mostly white). However, my ceramic rod does seem a bit smoother than it was initially. I read something about reconditioning ceramic stones that have become smoother over time. How long does it take before this is needed and what is the best way to do this easily and cheaply? I read about using silicon carbide powder for this with a grit size suitable for the grit size of the stone, is that correct?
 
I would get a few DMT diamond plates and a pasted strop. The diamonds can handle any steels. Ceramics work but I never use mine on my knives.
 
Depends on what kind of steel it is your trying to sharpen,the Spyderco stones will last you lifetime and possibly your kids and theirs as well and I'm not joking when I say that.
 
I tried a diamond stone once and I have a Fallkniven DC4. Based on those experiences I don't really like the feel of diamond stones. Also I dont like that they wear out the way they do.

I would mostly sharpen knives of moderate hardness on the stones, not super hard super steels.

What kind of maintenance do the sypderco stones need when they last that long, and are the shaptop pro stones different in this regard?
 
I would look into getting these stones and get the in the 80 150 240 400 OCB and if you want a really highly polished edge get the 800 1200 OCB one as well,they are Diamond stones but they are not like a DMT plate or an Atoma they will feel more like a water stones for sure or like a Ceramic stone for sure.

They will also wear a very long time and also out perform the Spyderco stones,I have the Spyderco stones in all 3 grit's for my TSProf and I hardly ever reach for them because they cut all steels at a very slow rate.
These Venev Bench stones will give you the best of both worlds your going to get awesome cutting speeds and if all you go up to is the 400 or 800 OCB you will have a great edge and stones that will last a very long time.
Also use Bar Keepers Friend Powder to clean all your water stones that load with swarf,it will clean them out really fast and just sprinkle a bit on the stone when its wet and rub it gently for a few seconds and your done.

https://www.gritomatic.com/collecti...monds/products/8-x-3-dual-side-bonded-diamond
 
Also those Venev stones will cut any steel you throw at them so if you ever did get something in S110V M4 M390 or even Maxamet your good to go.
 
Hm those could be a good option too! I will habe to see if I can buy them in the Netherlands though.
Shipping and taxes are really expensive otherwise :/.
 
+1 on those Venev bonded diamond hones. I bought the pocket sized ones to try (set of 4 which included a 1200/2000 grit which may no longer be available). They offer great feedback and just feel better all around than the many DMT hones I have. The pocket sized version is a nice size for smaller knives and/or field use. If I recall correctly, I paid less than $50 for all 4 shipped. I can't recommend them enough.
 
Spyderco ceramics and Bonded Ceramic Waterstones ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!

Spyderco ceramics are sintered aluminum oxide and thus a very hard and dense material. They do not release abrasive like waterstones and are much slower in metal removal because of this. Ceramic waterstones can be ceramic abrasive like the Shapton stones or simply a ceramic binder. So, don't just go by the word Ceramic because it does not always mean the same thing and sometimes it's not even describing the abrasive.
 
Just to add to what Jason B. Jason B. said, Aluminum Oxide and Silicon Carbide stones are ceramic stones. So a basic Norton Crystolon is a ceramic stone, but it is a much different beast than the Spyderco or water stones mentioned.

If you prefer to avoid diamonds and are sticking to the milder steels a Course Crystolon or Baryonx Mutt would be good for bevel setting and edge repair. A Norton medium India/soft Arkansas combination stone would go well with that.

Don't go below 8" long.

Not sure what they run in the Netherlands but these are pretty basic stones but far from inadequate.
 
Contact Konstantin at gritomatic and ask him what the shipping cost's would be,I think he would ship your stuff from Russia witch would be closer to you and would make the shipping cheaper then shipping from the USA.

woyen said:
Hm those could be a good option too! I will habe to see if I can buy them in the Netherlands though.
Shipping and taxes are really expensive otherwise :/.
Click to expand...
 
An open question, if anyone has an answer:

Coated diamonds usually come with a warning to use only light sharpening pressure, but for hogging off metal, such as reprofiling, I get faster results using more pressure with a coarse abrasive such as silicon carbide.

Can I use more sharpening pressure with bonded diamonds, such as I do with silicon carbide, for faster metal removal, or do they also require only light pressure be used, as with coated diamonds?

Thank you....
 
To reply to some specific points:

Spyderco ceramic stones have the properties you are describing: They are nice and flat, relatively smooth, and don't wear much at all. They don't release grit and won't dish until they have had an enormous amount of use. They will get smoother, but not very quickly as far as I can tell. I've seen a few reports of the Spyderco M becoming overly smooth, but I can only really think of one person that reported that.

To care for Spyderco stones, you mostly just clean them as they get loaded. Bar Keepers Friend or Bon Ami both work well. They are powdered cleansers like Comet. BKF has Oxalic acid, which eats steel, so it's better for removing the buildup (swarf) than other cleansers. Even soap and water (and a brush) work well for mild loading.

You should know that the Spyderco M, which is the most coarse Spyderco ceramic stone cuts relatively slowly. It's something like a 600 - 800 grit stone. So it won't remove much metal at all. You really need one or more stones that are WAY more coarse than this to reset bevels and do significant grinding. The Spyderco M will frustrate you greatly with a big sharpening job.

The M is kind of a magic stone though. It has some really great properties and puts a fantastic edge on a lot of blades for me. Sometimes I want to finish with a more coarse finish than it provides, but it always makes a nice sharp edge. It's actually surprising: You can produce a hair popping edge from just the M. I essentially never use the Spyderco F any more. I don't need my edge polished any further and I think the edge from the F is worse at cutting everyday materials than the edge from the M.

Brian.
 
I wouldn't recommend them for starter stones because of their care requirements. They're best used for touchups and finish-passes in final honing. Due to the way they don't shed grit to expose fresh cutting surface, the abrasive grains on the surface eventually dull and you end up burnishing (rubbing with friction, not cutting) your edge, and this can produce stubborn burrs and fatigued steel at the edge. To expose fresh grit you have to dress the stone with a diamond abrasive or similar (like CBN) to remove the worn grit and expose fresh cutting surface. However, because of how hard the bond is with sintered ceramics, the surface finish of the stone has a huge impact on the performance qualities in honing, and so coarser vs. finer surface finishes will work much like coarse vs. fine cuts of files. All of this is more levels of assessment than many beginners are ready for.

Instead, I suggest either diamond plates (with the caveat that light pressure should be used so you don't pull the diamonds out of their metallic bonding) since they are relatively low maintenance, or traditional vitrified bond (ceramic bond) stones with a medium-hard or hard bond (such as traditional "India" stones) as these are low maintenance--acting like training wheels for more finicky stones--and are very forgiving of common errors in beginner technique.

Sintered ceramics are fantastic to have in your toolkit, but I wouldn't recommend them as a first entry to your arsenal. They're a "nice to have" in most contexts rather than a "need to have".
 
woyen said:
I tried a diamond stone once and I have a Fallkniven DC4. Based on those experiences I don't really like the feel of diamond stones. Also I dont like that they wear out the way they do.

I would mostly sharpen knives of moderate hardness on the stones, not super hard super steels.

What kind of maintenance do the sypderco stones need when they last that long, and are the shaptop pro stones different in this regard?
Click to expand...
My DMTs have lasted for decades without any detectable wear.
 
I just got done using the Venev 400 OCB stone and I found that I could some pressure on it to remove the metal faster as with all of the Venev stones.

The problem with the Atoma and DMT plates is that the diamonds are electroplated onto a peace of metal and to say it plainly they are soldered in place,if you use to much pressure with them the diamonds hook into a softer section of the steel and get torn off the plate.

Where the Metallic CBN and resin stones like the Venev have more material holding the diamonds in place and they allow you to use more pressure without having to worry about tearing the diamonds out.

MtnHawk1 said:
An open question, if anyone has an answer:

Coated diamonds usually come with a warning to use only light sharpening pressure, but for hogging off metal, such as reprofiling, I get faster results using more pressure with a coarse abrasive such as silicon carbide.

Can I use more sharpening pressure with bonded diamonds, such as I do with silicon carbide, for faster metal removal, or do they also require only light pressure be used, as with coated diamonds?

Thank you....
Click to expand...
 
wade7575, thank you!

I've wondered about that for some time and your answer was very helpful. I always value information from those with first-hand experience.
 
Stripping a dmt from sharpening isnt easy to do unless you use extreme pressure. You can do it if your lapping a very hard stone though. They do mellow with use for sure.
 
If soft steel pulled diamonds from their matrix then my Decade old DMT plates wouldnt still be working. Typically, pressure causes the diamond to "rock" and become loose in the matrix and they are stripped away.

How much pressure?

Thats difficult to answer but i would say if you are on the ball of your feet, shoulders tight, arms locked and the tips of your fingers are turning white then you might be a little excessive on the pressure.

A firm hand is more than enough and if you feel the diamonds "digging into the steel" then you are again using too much pressure. With excessive pressure you can literally feel the steel being ripped away and it has an almost gummy resistance. This is when you know you are causing damage.

Ideally you should always use light pressure with diamond plates because the diamonds do not as aggressively attack the edge and YOU will be able to hold more consistency in your bevel angle.
 
They get pulled from people using to much pressure,my friend had a set and ruined his from not listening to advice.

I have also heard people in my area saying that they don't like the new DMT's as much as the older one's,there is a gun and tackle shop near me and they always carried DMT and not anymore because he had to many people complain about them a few years back and how they stopped cutting.It could have been a bad run but either way I never really cared for the DMT's I had years ago they always cut really slow when compared to the Venev and the CBN stone I have now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top