Are Hollow Grinded Knives not meant to baton wood

PartialSerrations

PartialSerrations

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Nov 22, 2001
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I have always wondered because they slice really good. Due to the nature of the grind they are not prybars and are not as strong as flat grinds. Can one use a hollow grinded knife for batoning wood. Are they suited for a bushcraft style knife? Thx
 
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PartialSerrations said:
I have always wondered because they slice really good. Due to the nature of the grind they are not prybars and are not as strong as flat grinds. Can one use a hollow grinded knife for batoning wood. Are they suited for a bushcraft style knife? Thx
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Well, yes and yes. One only has to look at two bush knives that have been in production the longest, the Buck 110 folder and the Buck 119 fixed blade. Both of the Buck knives are hollow grind and both will baton in a pinch.

In contrast to the latest 'flat to the stone regrind' craze, I have found that I much prefer a hollow grind. Call me old fashioned. :o
 
Depends on the angle and how thin the grind is. A convex (axe) and thick blade with large radius hollow grind are suitable for splitting and batoning.

A flat grind will tend to drag and stick. A sharp shoulder (hollow grind) or large smooth radius (axe) works better for batoning.
 
orthogonal1 said:
Doesn't the type of wood play a part?

I've noticed some woods can really grab a blade.
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Absolutely. Dry cedar batons like a dream and literally flies off the cut, whereas alder (or crap wood as I call it) has grain that goes all over the map and just loves to jam a blade or axe.
 
A.P.F. said:
I have found that I much prefer a hollow grind. Call me old fashioned. :o
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Bro, Hollow grinds are the NEWEST grind to the knife world, so old fashioned is sort of like saying jumbo shrimp when said in the same sentence as hollow grind. Since the advent of the Industrial revolution, they came about because a hollow grind could be done on a machine through a set of rotating wheels instead of by hand like a convex geometry. Hollow grind MIGHT be around for 80-90 years...if that. Convex dates back to ancient Rome at the least...a couple thousand years. Hollow grind IMO have a fantastic visual appeal, but lack the lateral strength for side stress when batoning. There are a lot of good steels and heat treaters out there that make a very tough knife that can handle some lateral stress from a bad hit or mishit with a baton, but the problem lies when you reach the top of the hollow grind. It will wedge itself into place and not drive any deeper easily especially when doing cross grain batoning. The Convex grind will immediately void the chip or media out and away from the blade and continue to do so the deeper you go. Since there is more material...by quite a bit...on a convex grind, it is far stronger and able to take the abusive punishment through the hardest of woods...this is given the heat treat is done properly at the correct Rockwell.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
I've used a baton on some hollow grinds, including a smaller Dozier, and not had any problems. Of course, I only did that when backpacking and no axe, hawk or heavier blade was available.

DancesWithKnives
 
TwinBlade said:
Bro, Hollow grinds are the NEWEST grind to the knife world, so old fashioned is sort of like saying jumbo shrimp when said in the same sentence as hollow grind...
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Hehe...I was thinking old compared to my sorry arse. ;)

Good post there, TB. :thumbup:
 
hand operated grinding wheels have been around a lot longer than 80-90 years, and a hollow profile can be forged in, the first fullers, or 'blood grooves' were forged, not ground. I don't know how old the hollow grind is, but it didn't take power tools to create it.
 
A.P.F. said:
Well, yes and yes. One only has to look at two bush knives that have been in production the longest, the Buck 110 folder and the Buck 119 fixed blade. Both of the Buck knives are hollow grind and both will baton in a pinch.

In contrast to the latest 'flat to the stone regrind' craze, I have found that I much prefer a hollow grind. Call me old fashioned. :o
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Is the 110 considered more of a hollow grind than a sabre grind?
 
enderwiggin said:
Is the 110 considered more of a hollow grind than a sabre grind?
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Yup. If the bevel started around the middle of the blade, it could be called a 'hollow sabre', but because the bevel starts much higher up towards the spine, it is a plain old hollow grind.
 
I always though that the spine thickness (also hardness in some measure) is as important as the grind type. I'll never baton a 1/16th inch spine-thick blade you see.

Also some makers grind hollow grinds but the thickness just before the edge is left thick enough for heavy use (think MMHW). So to summarize, I'll say spine thickness (and toughness) as well as the thickness around/near the edge is the more important factors compared to grind type alone.
 
TwinBlade said:
Bro, Hollow grinds are the NEWEST grind to the knife world, so old fashioned is sort of like saying jumbo shrimp when said in the same sentence as hollow grind. Since the advent of the Industrial revolution, they came about because a hollow grind could be done on a machine through a set of rotating wheels instead of by hand like a convex geometry. Hollow grind MIGHT be around for 80-90 years...if that. Convex dates back to ancient Rome at the least...a couple thousand years. Hollow grind IMO have a fantastic visual appeal, but lack the lateral strength for side stress when batoning. There are a lot of good steels and heat treaters out there that make a very tough knife that can handle some lateral stress from a bad hit or mishit with a baton, but the problem lies when you reach the top of the hollow grind. It will wedge itself into place and not drive any deeper easily especially when doing cross grain batoning. The Convex grind will immediately void the chip or media out and away from the blade and continue to do so the deeper you go. Since there is more material...by quite a bit...on a convex grind, it is far stronger and able to take the abusive punishment through the hardest of woods...this is given the heat treat is done properly at the correct Rockwell.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
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*Just wondering if this is from first hand experience, like you breaking a hollow ground knife or is it some you heard and thought it sounded right ?

*I know people say this all the time, but in my experience there is really not that big a difference. Once you reach the full thickness of the blade, both will drive in with pretty much the same force. ( Mind you, that I mostly batton for fun. And when I need to split wood for heating the house I use a splitting maul and a chain saw.)

*I agree that a convex knife is stronger then a hollow ground knife, all other things being equal, just by the fact that it has more steel in it.
But I have not broken either one battoning, so my opinion might be tainted by that. ;)
 
Hawkings said:
*Just wondering if this is from first hand experience, like you breaking a hollow ground knife or is it some you heard and thought it sounded right ?

*I know people say this all the time, but in my experience there is really not that big a difference. Once you reach the full thickness of the blade, both will drive in with pretty much the same force. ( Mind you, that I mostly batton for fun. And when I need to split wood for heating the house I use a splitting maul and a chain saw.)

*I agree that a convex knife is stronger then a hollow ground knife, all other things being equal, just by the fact that it has more steel in it.
But I have not broken either one battoning, so my opinion might be tainted by that. ;)
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#1, yes I did. It was a Buck 119. Broke about a 1/4" section clean out of the center of the blade. Some will say "well that isn't very good steel" and that may be for edge retention, but 420 HC is actually very tough...meaning it can handle a shock or stress like a lawn mower blade (Mower blade used as an illustrative example in case some one wants to mention that a mower blade is not 420 HC and they would be correct. :D ) See also your 3rd response to answer this question. :D

I disagree with "the same force" at full blade thickness when it comes to cross grain batoning especially. Why are axes convex ground? Why are splitting wedges convexed and then flat ground, not hollow? Why is the nose of a fighter jet convexed? The bow of a ship? the nose of a bullet? Regardless if it is air, water or solids, it is the most efficient way to travel through them. Designs would be radically changed and perfected in another manner if this was not the case. :thumbup:
 
Your not using proper logic. if the nose of a fighter jet was hollow ground think about what the air would do as it flows over the edge. A proper grind on a hollow ground blade is the same as a flat grind only the area is smaller. The edge of the blade is cut at a 15 deg and then the very edge 25 deg. So you go from 25 deg, to 15 deg, then there is nothing to contact the wood until the top of the hollow grind or back of the blade. The back of the blade is going to act as your wedge would when you split wood to saw deeper removing even more resistance from the blades edge.

A long flat grind is the worst possible because there is resistance the entire way. Convex would be the next best to whoolow grind because it removes resistance on the back half of the blade.

A wedge is designed to be driven with a maul into wood up to 100 time thicker than the blade. The designer has no clue if you are splitting a 2" peice or a 3 foot peice so teh design has to account for worst case even though it is not the most effecient. The wegde simple has to apply pressure on that 3 foot by 3 foot log until it fractures.

With a knife you know the limits. The user is not going to split would longer than the blade simply because they cannot. Why would an engineer carry over the poor design? The answer is simple. Most knife makers are not engineers, they are hands on artist.

The simple truth is wedge blades are the easies to make followed by convex. Both do add weight we can be an advantage if you are swinging the blade like an axe though. One could over come this issue on a hollow groung blade by design if desired. You'll also find hollow ground blade don't stick or jam nearly as bad as wedge or convex blades.
 
Hollow grinds are great imo. They combine the best things about a flat grind and the best things about a sabre grind. Keen edge and thick spine, best of both worlds. Lets be honest though, a convex grind is the best choice for chopping and batoning wood. A hollow grind will have no problems batoning through wood and its definitly strong enough with the thick spine (as long as the blade stock itself is thick enough to begin with) but the edge wont last as long as a good convex grind.
 
Why would that be? Both blades have the same thickness, the same material, the same RC59C Rockwell hardness, and both have the same edge, the hollow ground blade is simple releaved 1/4" above the edge.

I think most people believe a hollow grind is as thin at the edge as it is in the middle. I suppose they could be on a low cost import.

What in your mind determines how the edge compresses, rolls, or chips?
 
hardheart said:
hand operated grinding wheels have been around a lot longer than 80-90 years, and a hollow profile can be forged in, the first fullers, or 'blood grooves' were forged, not ground. I don't know how old the hollow grind is, but it didn't take power tools to create it.
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The first hollow ground straight razors showed up in the 1740's according to wikipedia.
A grinding wheel doesn't just create hollow grinds. If the blade is "rocked" an Opinel type slight convex will be produced.
I assume hollow grinds started getting really popular with the introduction of automation.
 
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