Are Machetes classified as swords?

For what purpose?
If you're looking for the proper place to discuss them, there have been numerous threads in General Knife (but there are other appropriate areas, as well).
 
hhmoore said:
For what purpose?
If you're looking for the proper place to discuss them, there have been numerous threads in General Knife (but there are other appropriate areas, as well).
Click to expand...

I don't really want to discuss machetes. I just want to know if Machetes are or can be considered Swords by the Sword community. Yes or no answer is what I am looking for. Not a discussion. I brought it up here rather than other forms because I want to hear from the sword community on this as they are experienced on this subject. And should have final say over this question.
 
It depends on how you use them. The machete was derived from the cutlass and has been used to slaughter millions in warfare. But, it still is an excellent tool.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
It depends on how you use them. The machete was derived from the cutlass and has been used to slaughter millions in warfare. But, it still is an excellent tool.

n2s
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Well that answers my question. I was trying to understand if the Machete was derived from Kukri and larger knives or Swords. Thanks for clarifying that. Now I know.
 
Mr opinionated said:
I just wanna know if Machetes can be considered Swords or classified in the Sword category?
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In my opinion, generally speaking, no.

Machetes are designed for a totally different purpose than a sword. Machetes are made to cut plant matter and are not optimized at all for fighting, and a sword is made for fighting people and is generally not built for brush-cutting.

There are blades that are sort of a hybrid, like some of the SE Asian types, or even @FortyTwoBlades Kingfisher model.

IMO a kukri is neither a sword nor a machete, it's a unique animal.
 
Than
Mecha said:
In my opinion, generally speaking, no.

Machetes are designed for a totally different purpose than a sword. Machetes are made to cut plant matter and are not optimized at all for fighting, and a sword is made for fighting people and is generally not built for brush-cutting.

There are blades that are sort of a hybrid, like some of the SE Asian types, or even @FortyTwoBlades Kingfisher model.

IMO a kukri is neither a sword nor a machete, it's a unique animal.
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k you for your thoughts and mentioning the possibility of hybrids. I am glad to be learning something from this forum.
 
The term comes from the word mallet.

ma·chet·e
/məˈ(t)SHedē/
  1. Origin
upload_2021-3-8_16-1-59.png
late 16th century: from Spanish, from macho ‘hammer’.

```````````````

machete (n.)
"heavy knife or cutlass," used as a weapon and tool by the Spanish in the Americas, 1590s (in pseudo-Spanish form macheto), from Spanish machete "a chopping knife," probably a diminutive of macho "sledge hammer," alteration of mazo "club," which is probably [Barnhart] a dialectal variant of maza "mallet," from Vulgar Latin *mattea "war club" (see mace (n.1)). An alternative explanation traces macho to Latin marculus "a small hammer," diminutive of marcus "hammer," from a base parallel to that of Latin malleus (see mallet).

```````````````````````````````
preceding early modern use of the term as a cutting edge one might consider that all those brass handled glaive/gladius types which began with the French 1771 artilery glaives certainly do get classified as swords but have much heavier blades. Still, they were to act as fascine knives to cut rods for fascine work. Those glaives and earlier bill hook types might actually be embodied as the sling blade brush hooks, and as closer to the original use of the term.

When we look at 17th century cutlasses, it can be somewhat clear that "modern" machetes followed the heavier blades.

This reproduction can be found in George Neumann's Swords and Blades of the Revolution. Quite similar to later machetes.

swcutpntedguard01.jpg

Nuemann Cutlass comp.jpg

Then there were trade blades into the 19th century that shared a general profile. From Gilkerson's Boarder's Away vol II Flashing Steel.


Gilkerson solingen 003.jpg

While it is clear where the forms come from, perhaps not as completely distinct when we start to look at other blades across the world. Sea trade certainly brought across a lot of mixing over time but the modern machete blades really wait for later in the 19th century with even the military bolo types still pretty thick.

Is a machete a sword? In my mind it depends whether it is a machete or a sword but that doesn't negate that a machete can be used like a sword. There are plenty of contemporary sword machetes on the market which generally get dismissed by snobs like myself but there is a huge market for them and folk happy with buying a first sword for low dollars.

It is all a bit of a perspective.

Cheers
GC
 
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horseclover said:
The term comes from the word mallet.

ma·chet·e
/məˈ(t)SHedē/
  1. Origin
View attachment 1523543
late 16th century: from Spanish, from macho ‘hammer’.

```````````````

machete (n.)
"heavy knife or cutlass," used as a weapon and tool by the Spanish in the Americas, 1590s (in pseudo-Spanish form macheto), from Spanish machete "a chopping knife," probably a diminutive of macho "sledge hammer," alteration of mazo "club," which is probably [Barnhart] a dialectal variant of maza "mallet," from Vulgar Latin *mattea "war club" (see mace (n.1)). An alternative explanation traces macho to Latin marculus "a small hammer," diminutive of marcus "hammer," from a base parallel to that of Latin malleus (see mallet).

```````````````````````````````
preceding early modern use of the term as a cutting edge one might consider that all those brass handled glaive/gladius types which began with the French 1771 artilery glaives certainly do get classified as swords but have much heavier blades. Still, they were to act as fascine knives to cut rods for fascine work. Those glaives and earlier bill hook types might actually be embodied as the sling blade brush hooks, and as closer to the original use of the term.

When we look at 17th century cutlasses, it can be somewhat clear that "modern" machetes followed the heavier blades.

This reproduction can be found in George Neumann's Swords and Blades of the Revolution. Quite similar to later machetes.

View attachment 1523555

View attachment 1523556

Then there were trade blades into the 19th century that shared a general profile. From Gilkerson's Boarder's Away vol II Flashing Steel.


View attachment 1523564

While it is clear where the forms come from, perhaps not as completely distinct when we start to look at other blades across the world. Sea trade certainly brought across a lot of mixing over time but the modern machete blades really wait for later in the 19th century with even the military bolo types still pretty thick.

Is a machete a sword? In my mind it depends whether it is a machete or a sword but that doesn't negate that a machete can be used like a sword. There are plenty of contemporary sword machetes on the market which generally get dismissed by snobs like myself but there is a huge market for them and folk happy with buying a first sword for low dollars.

It is all a bit of a perspective.

Cheers
GC
Click to expand...



Good stuff!

My favorite blades are often hybrids between a sword (IMO a weapon foremost by design) and a useful machete (meant to be a useful cutting tool), and it's the type I like to make the most, a nexus that incorporates both uses well with the least trade-off.
 
In my mind, the machete is thinner and more flexible than what I would consider a sword.

Growing up, my dad had a big chopping knife made in Coasta Rica. Stacked leather handle, rounded swell in front of the but cap, and too thick and rigid to be a machete.

There are machete that can cross that bridge (I'm thinking of the King Fisher machete that Barryonyx designed), handy for stabbing as well as chopping, D-guard. Longish blade.


I've never had a machete come close in thickness to my big choppers, or Khukri.


I have what I considered to he a heavy machete from Cold Steel. Their Magnum Khukri machete
2.75 mm thick, throughout. No distal taper, no guard. It would make a decent weapon, but still does not feel "sword like"
 
Bigfattyt said:
In my mind, the machete is thinner and more flexible than what I would consider a sword.

Growing up, my dad had a big chopping knife made in Coasta Rica. Stacked leather handle, rounded swell in front of the but cap, and too thick and rigid to be a machete.

There are machete that can cross that bridge (I'm thinking of the King Fisher machete that Barryonyx designed), handy for stabbing as well as chopping, D-guard. Longish blade.


I've never had a machete come close in thickness to my big choppers, or Khukri.


I have what I considered to he a heavy machete from Cold Steel. Their Magnum Khukri machete
2.75 mm thick, throughout. No distal taper, no guard. It would make a decent weapon, but still does not feel "sword like"
Click to expand...

I got a Latin 2 handed machete from Cold Steel. It looks pretty intimidating. But Even with a razor edge I could not get it to stick in some cured out red Oak. And the handle shock is quite severe and painful lol. I took my $10 thin stock Imacasa 14 inch machete to the red Oak and it stuck right in. Same with my KA-BAR Swabbie and Marbles Scout. Now the Cold Steel sits in the shed until I give it away or think of a way to remove that horrid polypropylene handle and add something else. I am convinced that the encapsulated handle material and hardness of it severely lessens striking power of the 2 handed machete. I was very shocked with the lack of power from a 2 handed machete.
 
Mr opinionated said:
I got a Latin 2 handed machete from Cold Steel. It looks pretty intimidating. But Even with a razor edge I could not get it to stick in some cured out red Oak. And the handle shock is quite severe and painful lol. I took my $10 thin stock Imacasa 14 inch machete to the red Oak and it stuck right in. Same with my KA-BAR Swabbie and Marbles Scout. Now the Cold Steel sits in the shed until I give it away or think of a way to remove that horrid polypropylene handle and add something else. I am convinced that the encapsulated handle material and hardness of it severely lessens striking power of the 2 handed machete. I was very shocked with the lack of power from a 2 handed machete.
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I refined the edge on mine with a grinder. I need to take a bit more mass out of the front/belly of that khukri machete.

I have a much longer machete with a huge blade, but it is about 1/2 As thick as the CS. It bites deep, but has a tiny handle!!
 
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Mecha said:
Good stuff!

My favorite blades are often hybrids between a sword (IMO a weapon foremost by design) and a useful machete (meant to be a useful cutting tool), and it's the type I like to make the most, a nexus that incorporates both uses well with the least trade-off.
Click to expand...

I remember watching your knife or death episode, and loving when the judges expressed doubt about your titanium sword. I chuckled to my wife and kids and said "watch this"..

I think many people were shocked at how amazing a light, thin, flexible Titanium sword could preform!!
 
Bigfattyt said:
I remember watching your knife or death episode, and loving when the judges expressed doubt about your titanium sword. I chuckled to my wife and kids and said "watch this"..

I think many people were shocked at how amazing a light, thin, flexible Titanium sword could preform!!
Click to expand...

It was a great opportunity to show that they do actually function well! :D



The @FortyTwoBlades Kingfisher is a perfect case study for this machete/sword question. He's a machete expert, and he wanted to make a machete that functions more like a sword. So what were the changes?

1. It got longer
2. It got a tip for thrusting, which also imparted a distal width taper for more quick, lively action along the blade's length
3. It got a handle that gives significant hand protection, and can even be used to beat some ass or catch a blade
4. More weight in the handle/guard zone neutralizes the weight distribution, rather than being forward-heavy for cutting plants.

The blade can still be used to do machete tasks, but the design changes made it significantly better as a weapon than a typical agricultural machete, expanding the ways and speed it can be used to damage flesh and protect the user's hand from a counter strike.

lnBQM59.jpg
 
And now for my super blunt opinion: If you pull out a basic machete against someone who has a sword like a katana, or rapier, or double-edged viking sword or keen cutlass, dao or jian, or a big kampilan, then you are fooked. Right fooked and should throw the machete at your opponent and run. I love machetes and yes a typical machete can obviously be used to fight and kill, but it's not a sword and doesn't compare to a sword.

The kampilan, from the Philippines where they're no strangers to machetes, is a real-ass sword. It has a huge long flexible blade that is tapered and gets paper thin at the distal length, a large protective hilt, and is light and extremely quick. But if it was used like a machete it would get damaged right away. It was purely designed for fighting.

kzaZUVc.jpg
 

I think some of you are overestimating the bulk and weight of classic swords. The falchion was very similar to a plus size machete and is thought to have armed a wide variety of fighting men during the Middle Ages, including a lot of the wealthy nobility. During the 19th and early 20th we often see the machete employed as a weapon in civil revolts. It was a classic staple during Cuba war of independence with Spain, with propaganda proclaiming the success of mass charges of machete armed troops against Spanish military formations. It was also a classic weapon of the civil authorities and plantation owners throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. Even the US military purchased and re-equipped the Cuban Civil Guards with Collins made machete sidearms after the Spanish American war. In recent years millions have fallen to the machete in numerous African genocide wars.

Here is a detail article on what happened in Rwanda:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0022343306059576

The machetes we are familiar with are all tools. But, often the distinction between tool and weapon comes down to little more than intent. In many parts of the world duels of honor are still fought with common machetes.

n2s
 
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not2sharp said:

I think some of you are overestimating the bulk and weight of classic swords. The falchion was very similar to a plus size machete and is thought to have armed a wide variety of fighting men during the Middle Ages, including a lot of the wealthy nobility. During the 19th and early 20th we often see the machete employed as a weapon in civil revolts. It was a classic staple during Cuba war of independence with Spain, with propaganda proclaiming the success of mass charges of machete armed troops against Spanish military formations. It was also a classic weapon of the civil authorities and plantation owners throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. Even the US military purchased and re-equipped the Cuban Civil Guards with Collins made machete sidearms after the Spanish American war. In recent years millions have fallen to the machete in numerous African genocide wars.

Here is a detail article on what happened in Rwanda:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0022343306059576

The machetes we are familiar with are all tools. But, often the distinction between tool and weapon comes down to little more than intent. In many parts of the world duels of honor are still fought with common machetes.

n2s
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I also think the distinction comes down to intent - the intent of design, not simply of use. The falchion is a sword and was made to be used as such, even if the blade resembles a machete.

A gun can be used to put a hole in a piece of metal but that doesn't make it a drill just because it was used like one, it's still a gun. A rock or stick can be a weapon if used that way, but are still rocks and sticks. What defines an edged weapon as a sword isn't what it's used for, but for what and how it was made to be used. A machete is still a machete, even if it gets used as a weapon to attack someone or simply used as a doorstop.

Arming people with machetes happens because of cheap cost, wide availability, and little to no training needed for use. A lot of the bloodshed that's been caused by machete-wielding mobs would have been just as effective had they been armed with baseball bats. But that doesn't mean the machetes (or the bats) are swords.

Hey, I gotta have strong opinions about it to do what I do. :D
 
Weapons and tools differ in that the former is always involved in an arms race, and has to be designed to counter the enemy’s defenses. But, if your enemy is dressed in modern street clothes, the sword can devolve back to just a classic efficient cutting edge, or, space permitting, a rapier.

n2s
 
Mecha said:
I also think the distinction comes down to intent - the intent of design, not simply of use. The falchion is a sword and was made to be used as such, even if the blade resembles a machete.

A gun can be used to put a hole in a piece of metal but that doesn't make it a drill just because it was used like one, it's still a gun. A rock or stick can be a weapon if used that way, but are still rocks and sticks. What defines an edged weapon as a sword isn't what it's used for, but for what and how it was made to be used. A machete is still a machete, even if it gets used as a weapon to attack someone or simply used as a doorstop.

Arming people with machetes happens because of cheap cost, wide availability, and little to no training needed for use. A lot of the bloodshed that's been caused by machete-wielding mobs would have been just as effective had they been armed with baseball bats. But that doesn't mean the machetes (or the bats) are swords.

Hey, I gotta have strong opinions about it to do what I do. :D
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Just remember some weapons were once agricultural tools.
Nunchucks use to be a farming tool. Same as the Karambit and Kama.
These were used because long ago only a soldier or person of noble blood line was allowed to own a sword.
 
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