Are The ABS JS Tests "Hard Use"

Alpha Knife Supply

Always Innovating
Joined
Oct 14, 1998
Messages
2,157
In a thread in the General Forum a member is concerned about the strength of a hidden tang. I responded with pictures of Nick Wheeler's JS test knife pointing out it was a hidden tang and passed the ABS JS tests.

Another member responded with:
Cliff Stamp said:
Chopping through a 2x4 and cutting a piece of rope are not exactly hard use which would stress a tang. As for the prying, this isn't a direct comparison as the ABS bowie is soft spined which makes it much easier to bend and thus reduces the strain on the tang.
ABS members and anyone who makes hidden tag knives, please add your comments to the thread. Comments about actual tests would be best. Let's not let a myth about the inferiority of hidden tangs get started.

The thread is here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355290

Thank You
 
I've said it before, I'll say it again, a well made hidden tange knife can be more durable than a full tange. There is less avenues for moister to get in, the whole handle with a gaurd acts as a single unit where as on a full tange you normaly have a set of scales glued and pined to a thin strip of metal and side torsion can made the handle flex and the scales adds little to no strength to the handle. Also most full tange knives are tappered and have a good bit of metal removed for weight. There is just less to go wrong with a hidden tange that is made rite.
 
Chuck, I test a lot of my knives trying different versions of heat treating. Some are full tangs, some are hidden, none have handles to support the tang areas.
I've never had a blade break at or anywhere around the tang area. But then again I don't change tires or use them for car ramps to drive up on for oil changes either. Some of these things these people request about a knives ability to do is simply amazing. If I'm going to chop wood I use a chainsaw, double bit axe and hand axe, I don't depend on a camp knife to cut my winters wood. I have driven knives though 55 gallon barrels using 3 and 5# hammers, I've drove them though dried hard woods using wood clubs. I've even chopped up bone and antler, I've bent,beat, dropped and chopped, but these were just to test edge retention and edge strength. None have ever broke at the ricasso/tang areas.I've fished and hunted for 38 years and I've never one time had to use my knife for anything other then what a knife is intended to be used for, slicing, cutting, butchering,skinning, gutting. I don't drive nails with a screw driver, or try to saw wood with a wrench. But I think some of these people that expect knives to do everything a knife wasn't intended for, just might. Go figure. :confused:
I've been in those kinds of threads before, and I've found that people are only going to read and believe what they want to. Sometimes your best off just to let people think what they want, about 99.9% knows whats right. ;)

Bill
 
I prefer hidden tangs. I only make full tangs because some of my customers want them and because it's really hard to find giraffe bone and mammoth ivory blocks.
 
Well, I agree, but can some of you go over to that thread and straighten Cliffy out?
He's cornfused...
 
B . Buxton said:
Chuck, I test a lot of my knives trying different versions of heat treating. Some are full tangs, some are hidden, none have handles to support the tang areas.
I've never had a blade break at or anywhere around the tang area. But then again I don't change tires or use them for car ramps to drive up on for oil changes either. Some of these things these people request about a knives ability to do is simply amazing. If I'm going to chop wood I use a chainsaw, double bit axe and hand axe, I don't depend on a camp knife to cut my winters wood. I have driven knives though 55 gallon barrels using 3 and 5# hammers, I've drove them though dried hard woods using wood clubs. I've even chopped up bone and antler, I've bent,beat, dropped and chopped, but these were just to test edge retention and edge strength. None have ever broke at the ricasso/tang areas.I've fished and hunted for 38 years and I've never one time had to use my knife for anything other then what a knife is intended to be used for, slicing, cutting, butchering,skinning, gutting. I don't drive nails with a screw driver, or try to saw wood with a wrench. But I think some of these people that expect knives to do everything a knife wasn't intended for, just might. Go figure. :confused:
I've been in those kinds of threads before, and I've found that people are only going to read and believe what they want to. Sometimes your best off just to let people think what they want, about 99.9% knows whats right. ;)

Bill

Amen to that Mr. Buxton!!! :D

Very well said my friend :)
-Nick-
 
Im with Bill and Nick on this one.

As far as the debate on full tang vs hidden tang I lean toward full tang. Ive never thought that hogging out a piece of handle material and filling it back up with expoxy was very precise or permanant. The slice it in half and mill out a clean slot is much better but still not my cup o tea. Its hard for me to believe that handle material is stronger than steel so I like full tang but each to his own.

BTW all my JS knives were full tang
 
I know there are many folks that think you have to wallow out a huge hole for a hidden tang.

But just for the record... I wanted to show that you can make a nice and clean, tight fitting slot for a hidden tang (in a solid block handle) :)

-Nick-

fittingblock4la.jpg
 
Nick that is a nice clean hole but what about stag or pithy antlers? Where did you get the square drill bit?
 
Bruce-

I wasn't trying to contradict you... just thought that pic was relevant to this thread.

Oh, I got that square drill bit at the Walla Walla Wal-Mart!!! ;) :p :D

-Nick-
 
To me both are structuraly sound when properly heat treated,If using stainless the heat treat goes all the way to the end of the tang thus leaving it more of a chance to get a stress crack or fracture.
For those that haven't ever seen the results of the testing done on my Dragonslayer here is a link,Very hard almost destructive tests were done.Here is a link to the test results
http://www.beknivessite2.homestead.com/files/EDS_Review.htm
Yes this is a hidden tang knife with a steel framed handle.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Bruce
 
As far as hidden tangs into stag or wood....I think that within reason....about any size hole you create for the tang is fine as long as you use a compound like Acraglas gel....which, short of steel, is most likely stronger than the handle material itself. That aside, you should always shoot for a tight fit though.

I have purposely busted off handles and found that while the material may shatter or crack....the Acraglas stays on the tang in a huge clump. Tough stuff for sure.
 
I think in any design, there will be inherent compromises, and no design, no matter how well-intentioned and executed, is foolproof. Any design advantage will find a person or situation out there that will defeat it. Specialised tools could be employed to best attack a specific problem, and there is no magic bullet. So-called do-it-all tools generally don't do ANYTHING particularly well.

I would back what Bruce Buxton said, and what Nick seconded.

There are also too many variables in the way different makers construct hidden and full tangs to make generalised statements like Full tang is superior to Hidden tang, etc.

In the actual bend test, I think it also depends on where the maker torques on the knife to bend the blade in bending tests. A visegrip clamped on the very tail end is different to a "cheater" lead pipe placed all the way down to the tang shoulders.

Then, let me say... I was made to understand FROM THE START, that the ABS JS bend tests were NEVER meant to imply strength in a knife, in case this is where the problem comes from. The bending test was to show that the maker had good understanding and control of the heat treatment processes to meet the demands of the testing requirements.

Any maker who had mastered the basic concept could then modify and adapt the heat treatment to suit their desired performance characteristics in the blade. More bendy, less bendy, soft tang, spring tempered tang, etc. etc. If the test criteria were for a blade to spring and not bend, or even to break , rather than bend, I'm sure bladesmiths would then be concentrating on achieving that, instead.

The chopping and rope cutting tests were a measure of edge durability and correct application of edge geometry, and to a lesser degree, bevel geometry, blade toughness and user skill.

The ABS tests don't specify that the test knife be either full tang or hidden tang. Its up to the maker to make what they make and to do their own homework to create a test knife that will survive the tests. Some will make hidden tangs, some will make full tangs.

As if to state the obvious, AGAIN, the ABS tests are not to determine who makes the best pry bar, club or hammer.

Folks who demand other performance parameters, such as prying ability are more than welcome to perform the tests. Again, I say, select your compromise and be aware of its limitations.

I know that little spiel is pretty off track, but I just had to get it off my chest... ;) Jason.
 
B . Buxton said:
Chuck, I test a lot of my knives trying different versions of heat treating. Some are full tangs, some are hidden, none have handles to support the tang areas.
I've never had a blade break at or anywhere around the tang area. But then again I don't change tires or use them for car ramps to drive up on for oil changes either. Some of these things these people request about a knives ability to do is simply amazing. If I'm going to chop wood I use a chainsaw, double bit axe and hand axe, I don't depend on a camp knife to cut my winters wood. I have driven knives though 55 gallon barrels using 3 and 5# hammers, I've drove them though dried hard woods using wood clubs. I've even chopped up bone and antler, I've bent,beat, dropped and chopped, but these were just to test edge retention and edge strength. None have ever broke at the ricasso/tang areas.I've fished and hunted for 38 years and I've never one time had to use my knife for anything other then what a knife is intended to be used for, slicing, cutting, butchering,skinning, gutting. I don't drive nails with a screw driver, or try to saw wood with a wrench. But I think some of these people that expect knives to do everything a knife wasn't intended for, just might. Go figure. :confused:
I've been in those kinds of threads before, and I've found that people are only going to read and believe what they want to. Sometimes your best off just to let people think what they want, about 99.9% knows whats right. ;)

Bill
A second AMEN to Bill. That is probably the best explanation about knife use I've heard in a long time. If you go into a thread with Cliff involved, with a similar explanation, he will take your qoute, section off the quote and tries to tell you how wrong you are.
Scott
 
A well made knife is a well made knife.

Both styles...done to perfection...will hold in all extremes. I see the HT being the more important question...rather than what type of handle a maker uses.

The argument becomes a matter of intellectual curiosity...rather than one of practicality...

The upside is...everybody can be right.

Both styles have advantages and disadvantages...

Over the last couple of years..I begin to realize there are members of these forums that start threads and ideas...just to get a rise out of folks...some want the publicity for their ideas and philosophies...some just want to make the extra dollar...some just need the attention of a peer group they have not found in RT.

All in all...agendas make the world a miserable place....

As far as Cliff goes...he has a place in the knife world...even if it is just to annoy people with his biases camoflaged with scientific gas. In a lot of ways...a guy knows he has finally made it...when Cliff tells him how crappy his knives are...and a maker would be in good company...with Ed Fowler...and Bob Dozier...and Chris Reeve...and all the guys Cliff has taken shots at...

All you guys can see throught the smoke...just keep making a good knife...without taking a second to ponder these silly threads...

one other thing...

Don't feed the Trolls!

Shane
 
This is one argument that I rarely take time for since it just doesn't hold water. Knives can be abused, but they virtually never see the same kind of stresses, impact and leverage forces in use like swords do, and the full tang sword is an entirely 20th century invention. Hidden tangs were used for thousands of years with no problem, but then those guys knew how to make a hidden tang, it was good and beefy at the guard and tapered nicely to the pommel - it was not a stick. You will notice that I have used the word hidden tang, and not stick tang. I call a stick tang one of those atrocities that are more commmonly known as rat tail tangs and they are indeed much weaker. I discourage all of my students from using a fuller tool to start the tang forging process, as that is what can result in the drastic stepping at the guard shoulders that is so inherently weak. This another case of something that works getting a bad name because of the many times it has been done wrong.

It is real simple, if you are using as a knife, you should not be able to notice the difference in how the tang is constructed. If you are not using a knife for a knife, you will eventually be dissapointed no matter how it is constructed because you need to go to your tool box and get the tool that was intended for the purpose.

I think knives with edges on them make horrible crowbars (downright dangerous) is it then proper to pronouce blades with edges as inferior?
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
This is one argument that I rarely take time for since it just doesn't hold water. Knives can be abused, but they virtually never see the same kind of stresses, impact and leverage forces in use like swords do, and the full tang sword is an entirely 20th century invention. Hidden tangs were used for thousands of years with no problem, but then those guys knew how to make a hidden tang, it was good and beefy at the guard and tapered nicely to the pommel - it was not a stick. You will notice that I have used the word hidden tang, and not stick tang. I call a stick tang one of those atrocities that are more commmonly known as rat tail tangs and they are indeed much weaker. I discourage all of my students from using a fuller tool to start the tang forging process, as that is what can result in the drastic stepping at the guard shoulders that is so inherently weak. This another case of something that works getting a bad name because of the many times it has been done wrong.

It is real simple, if you are using as a knife, you should not be able to notice the difference in how the tang is constructed. If you are not using a knife for a knife, you will eventually be dissapointed no matter how it is constructed because you need to go to your tool box and get the tool that was intended for the purpose.

I think knives with edges on them make horrible crowbars (downright dangerous) is it then proper to pronouce blades with edges as inferior?
AMEN again. Shoptalk is the place to get the right info from the REAL experts. :)
Scott
 
Back
Top