Are there any stainless steels worth a darn?

Jaeger

Jaeger

Joined
Feb 27, 1999
Messages
543
A question for all you knifesmths.
All of my best knives are made of carbon steel, except for my Spyderco Wegner which goes everywhere with me. My carbon blades are relatively easy to sharpen and take and hold an excellant edge. The Wegner is made of ATS34 which is touted as being great steel. I also have several other knives made of ATS34 and they are all a chore to sharpen. They hold a decent edge after they are sharpened but getting that edge isn't easy. I was only able to obtain a satisfactory edge on my Wegner after I got my Spyderco Sharpmaker. Needless to say, ATS34 is not my favorite steel. Are any of these other stainless steels any better than ATS? Are there any stainless steels that are close to the quality of a good carbon steel? (01, D2, etc)
 
Jaeger,ATS-34 is a very good stainless.I have made several knives with it.Also 440-C, but you will find there are as many opinions as there are steels.Alot depends on how the knife is to be used,the maker's personal preference,cost of materials,etc.I myself, prefer O-1 or 1095.It is reasonably priced,easy to work,easy to heat treat,and holds an easy to sharpen respectable edge.I sell most of my knives to working people who use them daily,so it helps me keep costs down and happy customers.I have to send my stainless knives out for heat treating which runs the cost up.Most of my stainless knives end up as wall-hangers anyway.As a knifemaker I enjoy someone using my knives and telling me how they perform.I also realize that most users do not have the equipment we have for sharpening these steels.Most users have just a wetstone and nothing else and I for one have tried sharpening some of these steels this way and it takes some effort,at least a little more than the simple carbon steels. Dave
 
i use ats-34 and 440c only, and i and my customers are very happy with the results. the which is better debate will go on till %&*(^## frezezes over!

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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
There are two philosophies in knifemaking.

Make them soft so they are easy to sharpen
or
Make them hard so they hold an edge well

If you have a hard knife you will have to purchase proper tools to sharpen it and learn how to use them. The simplest to use and best for sharpening hard knives is the Lansky system with diamond stones. Anyone who reads the instructions can sharpen a knife.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com


 
Maybe we can get Rob Simonich or Tom Mayo to jump in here. My understanding was that Cobalt alloys like Talonite and Stellite were hard carbides in a relatively soft matrix - leading to the best of both worlds. I have no experirnce with either yet. Gurus?

Rob!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
The reason I ask is because my father in law is a knifesmith. (and a VERY good one at that) I have quite a few of his knives and almost all of them are carbon steel. (D2 I think, but don't quote me) I can put a razor edge them using a whetstone and they hold an edge longer than my ATS knives. He used to use stainless once in a while and I have a Tracker that is made of ATS34. It is a b@!#h to sharpen. I just have to wonder if the rust resistancy is worth the trade off. He does make some knives that are almost too beautiful to use but for the most part his knives are working knives. He refuses to touch stainless anymore. I was mainly curious to know if any of these "new" stainless steels were any closer to the properties of a good carbon blade. (CPM440V, Talonite, etc.)
 
Cpm 420v , cpm 440v, talonite (non stainless)
and stellite are great!
The new materials from crusible will be even better! Soon


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
Happy Holidays!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by george tichbourne:
The simplest to use and best for sharpening hard knives is the Lansky system with diamond stones. Anyone who reads the instructions can sharpen a knife.
</font>
Click to expand...

Jaeger -- Ditto George's remarks.

I have an EdgePro system, a 2x48" belt grinder, and an array of strops and stropping compounds. I still use the Lansky with diamond and ceramic hones to restore simply worn edges on anything but convex bevels, as long as the sharpening angle stays above about 17 degrees. The Lansky diamond hones will eat ATS34 like cheese and will sharpen CPM 420V (and CPM 10V) quite readily. I do wish the Lansky blade holder allowed for shallower angles.

--W.



[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 12-11-2000).]
 
Will the lansky stones work on a gatco?

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
There are certainly stainless steels that are easier to sharpen than ATS-34 and 440C. The easiest to sharpen are AUS-8 and Sandvic 12C27. These are razor quality alloys that easily take a shaving edge. They also dull faster than ATS-34 and 440C. Both VG10 and BG42 are significantly harder alloys that take razor edges and are easier to sharpen than ATS-34 and 440C. If you tried a Spyderco Calypso Jr. Lightweight you'd become a believer in VG10 stainless.
 
Thank you for the sharpening tips. I have used a Lansky for years but I have not tried their diamond stones. I have had little problem sharpening any of my knives since I got my Spyderco Sharpmaker.
I guess the crux of my question was whether or not any of these new stainless steels come closer to the properties of a good carbon steel than ATS34. I have used AUS8 and it is easy to sharpen and takes a great edge but I was not happy with it's edge retention properties. I guess I will just have to go buy some new knives that use these new steels and give them a try! What a terrible chore that will be!
 
To answer your original question: not counting in powdersteels or cobalt alloys, NO ! I found no stainless steel yet to be better then a good carbonsteel blade. They are better in every departement except corrosion resistance. Even the price of Carbon steels is a lot better. And I am not talking about Heat-treathing yet !

I found that powdersteels and talonite may be super stuff, but since nothing is perfect, they have the biggest flaw off al...their price.
I don't believe Talonite or any off the CPM stuff is worth their price. Talonite costs 15 x D-3 , 20 x D-2. I seriously doubt it'll cut 20 x better. Same for the CPM stuff.

Note ! I live in Europe, so Talonite is much more expensive here then over there, same goes for CPM stuff.

just my opinion...


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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

You can E-mail me at any time....guaranteed reply !

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
 
When it is stated in a general sense that carbon steel is "better" than stainless steels, what does that mean? I am not trying to start a flame war but I am genuinely intrigued by the statement.

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C Wilkins
................
"We sharpened the points of our bayonets, and gave a razor-edge to our bowies, that the extermination we intended should be sudden and complete."
--1861, Henry Morton Stanley, in Arkansas as the Civil War began.
 
well i pretty much quit using stainless since i started forging..unless a customer asks for stainless i inform them of all the pluses of carbon or tool steel i can think of but in the same breath i make sure they know that my blades made of O-1 will rust if not taken care of.I heard a man say .."it`s no different than taking care of your favoright deer rifle" i think O-1 is better than stainless except for corosion resistance , the edge retention is so much better with O-1 , easy to sharpen , easy to maintain the edge in the field....don`t get me wrong stainless is great stuff and certainly has it`s place...but not in my shop if i can help it..
biggrin.gif


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i keep grinding and grinding and it is still too short!!
 
Why a carbon steel is better in the general way of speaking?
Simple. What makes a piece of steel a knife? It's capabilities to cut, to be tough and to be resharpened easy. When a steel is too brittle, it's hard to sharpen, and won't survive the smallest prying job.
Stainless steel are always less tough AND less edgeholding AND more expensive. They only have one advantage, corrosion resistance. Besides, If I should ask you to name a good stainless knife steel, you say BG-42 or VG-10 or ATS-34.....are you sure they're really corrosion proof?

They need less care in the corrossion section, and more care in the sharpening section. For hunters (I work mostly for these people) I always say to treath their knives along with their guns. If you give a gun a ballistoltreath, do the knife too. Handle, blade, sheath...everthing.

And, 52100 is also Stainless, if compared to 1095 or O-1. Since I mostly mirrorpolish my knives (a pretty good corrosion resistance factor), and temper them in hot Oil (also good for corrosion resistance)....Just don't put'm wet away and leave 'm lying there..

Someone once said this, and I've been using it ever since : Ruststains can be polished off, bad edgeholding or toughness can't be corrected.

Ed Caffery: the overall package: Taking all factors together, the best cutlery steels are (and will be for a long time in my opinion) 5160 and 52100. It isn't just a habit that most ABS test knives are made out of 5160.

greetz, Bart.

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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

You can E-mail me at any time....guaranteed reply !

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
 
Any steel is what you make of it, no better, no worse. Blade and edge geometry as well as temper must be tailored to the steel used. I've made some ATS-34 blades that have held up in some serious tests. Personally I like CPM-3V better. I'd probably use 52100, but a billet of that costs the same as 3V so I don't. CPM-420V holds an edge about as well as anything, AND it doesn't rust.

"Always" and "never" can be problematic words in almost any context.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Mr. Hossum, you are correct. What experience has taught me is the only absolute is that there are NO absolutes. One very important factor or possibly the most important factor is heat treat regardless of the steel.

There have been technological leaps and bounds in the area of steel technology. At one time I would have absolutely agreed with the statement concerning carbon steels. We "may" not be there yet but there are still some pretty smart folks out there figuring this stuff out. I understand that Crucible is working on a "stainless" 3V....

 
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