Are there any writings about knives when stainless steel was first introduced?

Macchina

Macchina

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Like many on here, I carry a combination of carbon and modern stainless steel knives. Of course a S30V is going to outperform a CV Case knife, but I feel the CV case significantly out performs a stainless Case as well.

Stainless steel was invented in 1913 and quickly took over kitchen knives but seems to have taken a lot longer to take over pocket knives and fixed blades.

The Buck 110 was released in 1964 with 420HC steel and still performs amazingly well today so it seems stainless steel pocket knives were widely accepted by at least the 60’s.

Are there any writings on stainless steel pocket knives when they were first introduced? Was it first shunned as being “soft” or “weak” in the same way we look at new knife materials (like ceramic or titanium or replaceable blade knives) nowadays?
 
My recollection or at least my opinion is the Bucks were anomalies. Most outdoorsmen shunned stainless steel because it wouldn’t hold an edge. Back then alot of it wouldn’t even take an edge.

The Bucks seemed almost magical. Almost stainless but harder than carbon steel. Those early Buck 110’s were hard to sharpen with the stones we had back then. But they would get rust spots if you put them away wet.

I vividly remember a friend of my fathers cutting up steel beer cans with his new 110 and being amazed it could still cut paper. My Dad had a 110 on his duty belt in short order. Lol.
 
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Macchina said:
Like many on here, I carry a combination of carbon and modern stainless steel knives. Of course a S30V is going to outperform a CV Case knife, but I feel the CV case significantly out performs a stainless Case as well.

Stainless steel was invented in 1913 and quickly took over kitchen knives but seems to have taken a lot longer to take over pocket knives and fixed blades.

The Buck 110 was released in 1964 with 420HC steel and still performs amazingly well today so it seems stainless steel pocket knives were widely accepted by at least the 60’s.

Are there any writings on stainless steel pocket knives when they were first introduced? Was it first shunned as being “soft” or “weak” in the same way we look at new knife materials (like ceramic or titanium or replaceable blade knives) nowadays?
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small correction the 110 came out in 440c first.....then 425m, then 420hc as it is today and other steels added in runs......

Buck Knives: The 110 Folding Hunter

A Photographic History of the Buck Knife 110 Folding Hunter
www.historyofthe110.com
 
madcap_magician said:
Check out Larrin Thomas's "The Story of Knife Steel." He goes through the history of modern steel as used specifically in knives with something of a focus on stainless, tool, and advanced alloy steels.
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Thanks for mentioning the book. It is easy to read about how stainless steel was invented and its early use in “table knives,” but most of what happened after that was not in any easy to find form. Even the development of significant steels like 440A and 440C was not written about anywhere. Would have been a lot easier if there were articles or books about it already. There is definitely more out there hidden in obscure places somewhere but I uncovered a lot of primary sources that haven’t been referenced anywhere else.

I also wrote about how they were used in knives and which brands jumped on early, and the negative perception of stainless steels.
 
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Larrin said:
Thanks for mentioning the book. It is easy to read about how stainless steel was invented and its early use in “table knives,” but most of what happened after that was not in any easy to find form. Even the development of significant steels like 440A and 440C was not written about anywhere. Would have been a lot easier if there were articles or books about it already. There is definitely more out there hidden in obscure places somewhere but I uncovered a lot of primary sources that haven’t been referenced anywhere else.

I also wrote about how they were used in knives and which brands jumped on early, and the negative perception of stainless steels.
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They were both great books!
 
Macchina said:
Like many on here, I carry a combination of carbon and modern stainless steel knives. Of course a S30V is going to outperform a CV Case knife, but I feel the CV case significantly out performs a stainless Case as well.

Stainless steel was invented in 1913 and quickly took over kitchen knives but seems to have taken a lot longer to take over pocket knives and fixed blades.

The Buck 110 was released in 1964 with 420HC steel and still performs amazingly well today so it seems stainless steel pocket knives were widely accepted by at least the 60’s.

Are there any writings on stainless steel pocket knives when they were first introduced? Was it first shunned as being “soft” or “weak” in the same way we look at new knife materials (like ceramic or titanium or replaceable blade knives) nowadays?
Click to expand...

The issue was the heat treat. Specifically, the quench. Proper quenching of stainless requires a subzero quench. The Germans discovered this in the late 1930's. Because of the war, the information about proper quench temp did not get to US knife makers until the early 1950's. And it was not universally applied until the early 1960's. So early stainless did not hold an edge well.

Last I heard, Case was still only taking Tru-Sharp to about a 55 HRC. The CV used to be about a 58 HRC. I don't know what they are doing with their current straight carbon steel blades.
 
Interesting, Wilhelm Weltersbach first advertised Stainless Steel on the model #25 manual Shellpullers in the 1937 Catalog.
 
knarfeng said:
The issue was the heat treat. Specifically, the quench. Proper quenching of stainless requires a subzero quench. The Germans discovered this in the late 1930's. Because of the war, the information about proper quench temp did not get to US knife makers until the early 1950's. And it was not universally applied until the early 1960's. So early stainless did not hold an edge well.

Last I heard, Case was still only taking Tru-Sharp to about a 55 HRC. The CV used to be about a 58 HRC. I don't know what they are doing with their current straight carbon steel blades.
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Interesting, Wilhelm Weltersbach first advertised Stainless Steel on the model #25 manual Shellpullers in the 1937 Catalog.
 
I would guess, worlwide the biggest change was in 1921
From the Victorinox History, on their site:

1921​

The invention of stainless steel (Inox) is a highly significant development for the cutlery industry.

The combination of the two words "Inox" and "Victoria" results in today’s company and brand name – Victorinox.
 
Early Buck knives in 440C were a challenge to sharpen. Didn't have diamond hones then so I ruined a nice Ranger/112 by over-sharpening on carborundum hones, which were all I had at the time. Arkansas hones didn't work much better, either. Larrin's books are terrific.
 
knarfeng said:
The issue was the heat treat. Specifically, the quench. Proper quenching of stainless requires a subzero quench. The Germans discovered this in the late 1930's. Because of the war, the information about proper quench temp did not get to US knife makers until the early 1950's. And it was not universally applied until the early 1960's. So early stainless did not hold an edge well.

Last I heard, Case was still only taking Tru-Sharp to about a 55 HRC. The CV used to be about a 58 HRC. I don't know what they are doing with their current straight carbon steel blades.
Click to expand...
Subzero and cryo helped but it isn’t/wasn’t necessary to good stainless performance.

Back then Case heat treated their carbon steel very soft, and the stainless steel was similar. For some reason people noticed how soft the stainless was but not the carbon steel. Seemed like a perception issue.
 
When I was a kid around 8 years old I remember a group of men at the local hardware store discussing knife steel and Swedish stainless steel. Most all of those guys were wwII veterans and had been in various places around the world and had plenty of experiences. The consensus among those guys was that the Swedes had a better alloy and was more preferable for blade steel than other sources of stainless steel.

That stuck with me and I’ve always wondered if there was anything to their argument. I can’t remember the specifics or reasoning to their argument but it was heavily debated back then about 1967. I still run into a few older men on occasion that mention Swedish stainless steel as though it were a special mystical alloy. I guess I should do some research and investigate.
 
The History and Development of Stainless Steel - Hickey, Mary - https://archive.org/details/historydevelopme00hick/page/73/mode/1up?q=cutlery .

Stainless Iron and Steel - Monypenny - https://archive.org/details/stainlessironste0000unse_s7e9/page/n13/mode/2up?q=cutlery .

There's a couple of early books on the history of Stainless that you can read or download for free.

--------------------------------

Offhand, Wade and Butcher, through their American plant were one of the earliest to offer stainless sporting knives in the US in the mid 20's. They were proud of using Firth stainless ( https://hawleysheffieldknives.com/n-fulldetails.php?val=firth&kel=1786 ) on some models.

Ka-Bar/Union Cutlery Also had some stainless models offered just a few years after those too.

Queen was probably the biggest user of stainless pre 1960's though.
 
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Larrin said:
Subzero and cryo helped but it isn’t/wasn’t necessary to good stainless performance.

Back then Case heat treated their carbon steel very soft, and the stainless steel was similar. For some reason people noticed how soft the stainless was but not the carbon steel. Seemed like a perception issue.
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Hi Larrin,
As a materials engineer, I did not normally argue with the metallurgists on my team. Howsoever, it was known to happen occasionally. Our areas of expertise sometimes overlapped. So let me clarify my earlier response as I was not exact in my wording.

Early production stainless blades were known for poor edge holding. This was due to the lack of a sub zero quench. (I'm not talking cryogenic.) The lack of sub zero quench caused retained austenite. The need for a subzero quench was first understood by the Germans in the late 1930's. The knowledge later came to the US in the 1950's, and was first used by Robeson. It took until the 1960's or beyond for the practice to become universal. But it required a long time for the normal user to recognize that stainless blades could be trusted to have good edge holding.

I'm sure you know that carbon steel does not have the need for subambient quench. So prior to the 1960's it was common that carbon steel blades held an edge better than stainless blades, because they did not have the issue with retained austenite.

sources:



Search the BRL forum for posts by BRL containing the word "Quench".
 
calm said:
I would guess, worlwide the biggest change was in 1921
From the Victorinox History, on their site:

1921​

The invention of stainless steel (Inox) is a highly significant development for the cutlery industry.

The combination of the two words "Inox" and "Victoria" results in today’s company and brand name – Victorinox.
Click to expand...
Not sure what the significance of 1921 is here.......other than maybe thats when Elsner started using some form of early stainless?
Stainless steel didn't just appear in that 1921. Stainless, or "rustless" steel had been in use since the mid 19th century when European cannon makers used chromium steel for cannon barrels that were not prone to corrosion. Patents for corrosion resistant chromium steel date back to about 1861. I believe that the first steel we would recognize as modern stainless came about before WW1 when Krupp patented its 18/8 stainless steel in 1912 under the name Nirosta.
The American Stainless Steel Corporation was who really started widespread use of the name "stainless steel" when it began producing 420 stainless sometime around 1915.

Lesknife said:
When I was a kid around 8 years old I remember a group of men at the local hardware store discussing knife steel and Swedish stainless steel. Most all of those guys were wwII veterans and had been in various places around the world and had plenty of experiences. The consensus among those guys was that the Swedes had a better alloy and was more preferable for blade steel than other sources of stainless steel.

That stuck with me and I’ve always wondered if there was anything to their argument. I can’t remember the specifics or reasoning to their argument but it was heavily debated back then about 1967. I still run into a few older men on occasion that mention Swedish stainless steel as though it were a special mystical alloy. I guess I should do some research and investigate.
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According to Thomas Eriksson, knives made by KJE in Mora Sweden used AEB-L in the late 1950s through the 60s, followed by Sandvik 13C26 in the 70s.
 
knarfeng said:
Hi Larrin,
As a materials engineer, I did not normally argue with the metallurgists on my team. Howsoever, it was known to happen occasionally. Our areas of expertise sometimes overlapped. So let me clarify my earlier response as I was not exact in my wording.

Early production stainless blades were known for poor edge holding. This was due to the lack of a sub zero quench. (I'm not talking cryogenic.) The lack of sub zero quench caused retained austenite. The need for a subzero quench was first understood by the Germans in the late 1930's. The knowledge later came to the US in the 1950's, and was first used by Robeson. It took until the 1960's or beyond for the practice to become universal. But it required a long time for the normal user to recognize that stainless blades could be trusted to have good edge holding.

I'm sure you know that carbon steel does not have the need for subambient quench. So prior to the 1960's it was common that carbon steel blades held an edge better than stainless blades, because they did not have the issue with retained austenite.

sources:



Search the BRL forum for posts by BRL containing the word "Quench".
Click to expand...
Yes, the history of cryo/subzero in knives is in my book. Carbon steels do not require subzero for good performance, and either do stainless steels.
 
Larrin said:
Yes, the history of cryo/subzero in knives is in my book. Carbon steels do not require subzero for good performance, and either do stainless steels.
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Is cryo quench only really required if one wants the bordering on ludicrously high Rockwell hardness people scream for these days?
 
stabman said:
Is cryo quench only really required if one wants the bordering on ludicrously high Rockwell hardness people scream for these days?
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No, it can be beneficial for edge performance even at the same hardness. There are ways to minimize the need for cryo depending on the steel and target hardness. It depends on how much you are pushing the hardness for the given steel. Vanax or LC200N you probably would top out at 58 Rc for a “good” heat treatment without cryo. Adding cryo you could get an extra couple points. But they are on the low end. Other steels can do well significantly harder without cryo. Hard to talk specifics without doing a whole article.
 
I was a young Boy Scout in the ealy 1960s. Stainless had been out for a while already by then, but was not so widley used s today. Stainless knives cost more (dunno the ratio). The adults atround me back then all said that while it wouldn't rust, stainless would not take as sharp an edge or keep it as long.

That is what I grew up knowing about stsinless. steel kn ives.
 
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