Are tool steel blades the best?

K

kmh

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Aug 5, 2004
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Heya everyone! Long time visitor - first time poster :D

I'm looking for a good folder. I bought a CRKT a while back but the blade is too soft for my needs, so I was thinking on finding one made from tool steel to hold an edge.....
...any thoughts?
 
Welcome to the forums. My personal favorite tool steel is D2. There are several folders that use this steel. One that I can think of off the top of my head is the Benchmade Griptilian. It is thought very highly of by many of the forumites. ;)
Scott
 
Tool steels = W1, O1, A2, D2, M2, L6

All make great knives.
 
Tool steel, aka carbon steel, blades are not "stainless". W-2, 1095, L6, O1, A2, 5160, and M2 are commonly used tool steels. Generally speaking, these have better edge retention and are easier to sharpen than stainless steels. However, they rust. Very easily if you don't keep them dry and oiled.

D2 (used a lot by Benchmade) is refered to as "semi-stainless". It has superior edge retention to stainless (although it is rather difficult to sharpen), but it does corrode if not taken care of. Not as badly as a carbon steel, but it requires much more maintainance than a stainless steel.

In terms of edge retention, stainless steels are vaguely in this order (lower to higher): 420J, 440A/AUS-6, 420HC (might be out of place), AUS-8/440C, VG-10, ATS-34/154CM, S30V. The last 4 are very good steels, the current "top of the line". ATS-34 and 154CM are pretty much identical (Japanese vs USA), VG-10 is Jap, S30V is Yank. Keep in mind that a lot about the quality of steel is also in the heat-treatment that the maker gives the blade. 440C is a mid-level, but Benchmade does an extremely good job with it. Spyderco's AUS-6 is superior to anyone elses. There's other steels like BG-42, CMP440V, or ATS-55, but these aren't used to the quantities as the ones listed before, and have unique properties of their own (and each maker's knives are unique in how they deal with these properties).

CRKT uses a lot of AUS-6 and AUS-8 in their knives. To be honest, I've never been terribly impressed with any CRKT knife, but many people like them. The M16 line is very popular. The AUS-8 is probably only around 57-58 Rc hardness. The premium steels (VG-10, ATS-34, 154CM, and S30V) are usually hardened to 59-60. So pretty much any knife made from these steels will keep an edge better than your old CRKT.

In comparison, tools steels can be made harder, sometimes up to 65 Rc. But usually, they're not taken above 60-62. The harder you temper a steel, the longer it'll stay sharp, but the more brittle it'll get. Abrasive cutting can microscopically (or macroscopically) chip a brittle blade, as can accidentally dropping or bumping the blade against something. This is why you'll often see tool steel knives hardened to "only" 58-60. This makes a knife that'll stay sharp a very long time, and will be easy to sharpen.

For the best of both worlds, you'll probably get a lot of reccomendations for the Benchmade 710HS or 806D2 (thumbstud or thumbhole). These have black teflon coated D2 blades at 60-62 Rc. The coating prevents corrosion, and it'll take a wicked sharp edge for a long time (harder to sharpen though). You still have to keep the edge dry though, because it'll still rust, and corrosion ruins the edge-holding abilities of steel.
 
Generally speaking all steel knives are from tool steel, some stainless, some high carbon steel. Crucible developed S30V as a cutlery steel. VG-10 is a cutlery steel from Japan. Each steel has a set of characteristics. Pick an appropriate steel for the use of the knife. Generally speaking the bigger the blade the less carbon in the steel. This accounts for the greater impact that a larger blade cause of more leverage, has to endure. For example Wally Hayes or Don Fogg might make a Katana out of 1050 steel for impact resistance and etching the hamon out of the blade. Wayne Goddard uses alot of 5160 for his big Bowie knives. Stainless Steel Blades are very difficult to differentially heat treat and are usually of homogenous hardness. That is the reason you don't see many large working or using pieces of Stainless. San Mai Steel is the next level where you can achieve synergy or the combination of two steels in sandwich configuration, Damascus steel can fit into this category. Pick the best steel you can afford to fit the use of the knife.
 
Hi Ed,

Appreciate your input here.
I was unaware that stainless was difficult to differentially heat treat.

Can you give more details about the reasons why this is? Is it all stainlesses or like tool steels some are more difficult than others?

Thanks

Robin Brown
 
Stainless steels can be diff. tempered, but it's a fringe science right now - ie. just came out in a Blade magazine a few months back.



Nice to see you post, Ed.
 
As for carbon steel being subject to rusting, keep in mind that it will not rust spontaneously. And most of these steels do actually develop gray oxyde patina which protects them from rusting. You have to wipe some rust away when the knife is very new, but once it has become gray (or even sometimes black) there's no concern anymore.
 
People overly exaggerate the rust-ability of carbon and tool steels. I've EDCd a Queen in D2 for several weeks now, with no coating on the D2 blades, and not a spec of rust (although the brass liners have gotten a bit darker ;) ) Also, an Opinel I used to carry sometimes doesn't have any rust either, despite being made of carbon steel with no coating.

But, to answer your questions, I love the D2 in my queen more than anything...very nice edge holding, and very durable steel which will bend rather than break.
 
brownie0486 said:
Hi Ed,

Appreciate your input here.
I was unaware that stainless was difficult to differentially heat treat.

Can you give more details about the reasons why this is? Is it all stainlesses or like tool steels some are more difficult than others?

Thanks

Robin Brown
Click to expand...

Alot of stainless steels will air harden and not stay soft in the areas not intended to the hardened. Also, the tempering temps are quite often very high which more or less rules out them being torch drawn in the spine, tang, etc. Other stainless steels require some extensive soak times and the quenching process is alot different than carbon steels.

I remember reading something from Bob Engnath about selectively tempering 440C with a torch. 440C will forge and can be quenched in oil....and don't quote me on this, but tempered at 350F. I would imagine it could be put edge down in a pan of water then the spine drawn with a torch....but I am not sure how much of an effect it would have on the hardeness. As you can see, other steels that require very high tempering temps would be difficult to attempt this.

I oughta try this with some 440C once.

Oh,,,BTW...I got the billet for your Bowie forged out Brownie!
 
Thanks for the info and update Greg, looking forward to enjoying your work when it arrives.

I'll be out of the area for two weeks, hooking up with some players in Colorado in a month.

Robin Brown
 
Thanks for all the input! Now all I have to do is figure out which one I can afford :D
 
doing some searching on the net, the Benchmade Griptilian is in 440c .... is there a version with the D-2?
 
If you are looking for the virtues of S30V but the characteristics of Tool Steel try D2 - if heat treated correctly not many steels (stainless or tool) can match it although A2 will give it a run for its money in the right knife.
 
Planterz said:
For the best of both worlds, you'll probably get a lot of reccomendations for the Benchmade 710HS or 806D2 (thumbstud or thumbhole). These have black teflon coated D2 blades at 60-62 Rc.
Click to expand...

Slight rectification: the 710HS is in M2.
 
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