Arkansas Stones

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L2bravo

Joined
Jun 14, 2013
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the progression of Arkansas stones, go as follows: Washita, white, black, translucent?

What grits do these have? Is there still value in using them, for things like Sandvik steels, and kitchen knives, and such? Thanks for the help guys.
 
Washita: 400-600 grit
Soft Arkansas: 600-800 grit
Hard White: 800-1000 grit
Hard Black: 1200-1500 grit
Translucent: around 2000 grit
Classifications and grits vary with the chosen "authority" and, in my experience, can even vary with individual stones. The above numbers reflect, approximately, my personal stones, so I used them. As for continued usefulness, reflect on the fact that the rest of the world did not rush to melt down its cutting edges just because a relative handful of enthusiasts "graduated" to "super steels." I bought my first high-wear steel knives this year. The only sharpeners I ever owned besides Arkies and SiC were a DMT tapered diamond file for serrated and an E-Z-Lap 6" pocket sharpener for my tacklebox.
I'm informed by reliable sources that some of the high-carbide steels are harder than the quartz which is novaculite (Ark. stones), so , for them, you need diamonds and and other very hard materials to sharpen them.
It seems that some may not realize that owners/users of these new knife steels would not, all together, constitute a decent-sized city in a third world country (although that notion of exclusivity attracts many). The rest of the world merrily or obliviously (your choice) happily hacks, slices, saws and shaves itself through the day with nary a care.
Full disclosure: I just bought a shoebox full of high-wear steels and got diamonds, ceramics and waterstones for my birthday. I plan to play like hell with my new toys. Need 'em? Nuh-uh. I still own 440Cs that I've worked, used and abused for 30+ years. None of the Arkansas stones I kept them sharp with are quite ready to be made into paving stones.
 
Some cheaper Arkansas stones don't work so well on steels like 440C for heavy grinding/re-bevelling tasks (I learned this the hard way, with an older Buck in 440C). Based on what I've read here, other better ones may do OK. Just something to watch out for.

For finishing tasks, the black hard and translucent stones can work nicely on most steels. On harder steels (more wear-resistant), they can also work for de-burring and burnishing, though they likely won't remove much metal by abrasion.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Some cheaper Arkansas stones don't work so well on steels like 440C for heavy grinding/re-bevelling tasks (I learned this the hard way, with an older Buck in 440C).


David
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Guess I should have mentioned that. I don't like any of the Arkansas stones for heavy stock removal-the only thing you'll hog off is your time and sweat. I, too, learned this the hard way with a 1960's Buck 110. I had to smile at the memory when I read your post. It was a long time before I could believe Buck used earthly materials for blades. Either that, or I had stumbled across one of Excalibur's offspring. You're absolutely right; all the Arkies are refining and finishing stones unless you have a fairly thin blade to begin with.
 
I have an old Washita stone that is older than me, and it has dished out from use but still works if you are real careful and adjust from its canoe shape. It is ok for 1095 and similar steels, but I don't think I have enough years left on this earth for it to do anything with S30V or such steels.:o If given the choice for a similar type stone today, it would probably be an India stone over the Arkansas type stones, with the exception of maybe the translucent stone for finish work.

Blessings,

Omar
 
StevieWunders said:
Guess I should have mentioned that. I don't like any of the Arkansas stones for heavy stock removal-the only thing you'll hog off is your time and sweat. I, too, learned this the hard way with a 1960's Buck 110. I had to smile at the memory when I read your post. It was a long time before I could believe Buck used earthly materials for blades. Either that, or I had stumbled across one of Excalibur's offspring. You're absolutely right; all the Arkies are refining and finishing stones unless you have a fairly thin blade to begin with.
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I have the same sentimental reaction, when thinking of this. Mine was an old 'two-dot' 112 that I'd bought 20+ years ago. The factory edge on that knife was thick, and I'd futilely tried to thin it on a cheap 'Tri-stone' setup I'd bought around the same time. The 'coarse' stone was a synthetic or perhaps 'corundum' ('natural' aluminum oxide) which shed abrasive like crazy and did little else, and the mid-grit was a soft Arkansas stone. Only decent stone on the set was the translucent finishing stone. At any rate, I made zero progress on the coarser stones and ended up putting the knife back in storage for the next 20 years or so. I'm glad I held onto it, because I finally thinned & convexed it on some SiC wet/dry paper, and it blew me away. Immediately became my new 'favorite' knife, when I'd previously thought it wasn't worth much at all. Turned out to be a great education in the difference between abrasive types. So, I also smile when thinking about this. :)


David
 
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We've had this before and the black is finer. Switch the order, Translucent then Black and it will be correct. DM
 
StevieWunders said:
Washita: 400-600 grit
Soft Arkansas: 600-800 grit
Hard White: 800-1000 grit
Hard Black: 1200-1500 grit
Translucent: around 2000 grit
Classifications and grits vary with the chosen "authority" and, in my experience, can even vary with individual stones. The above numbers reflect, approximately, my personal stones, so I used them.

I and others have compared MY black Ark. and MY translucent Ark. and no one has any doubt that all 5 accessible sides of the mounted translucent are smoother than any of the 6 sides of the black stone. This black stone was hand-selected after a careful comparison with others of the same type and is not inferior to general standards. Perhaps I got really lucky to find the translucent stone I have, for it will easily take my edges to higher levels of sharpness than my black and it does a surprisingly good job of polishing the bevels-better by far than the black. Mother Nature has a history of fooling those who attempt to set boundaries around her. General standards are just that-general. You never know exactly what capabilities a stone has until you put steel to it and you need to have sharpened that same piece of steel on other stones before in order to have a benchmark. I limited my categorization to my stones and said so for these reasons. I would not attempt to tell an experienced hand sharpener that he could not tell a finer grain from a coarser one when he had already used both extensively. I would be content to know the things I could determine with my own hands.
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Let me be a little more clear in my line of questioning. I was thinking about adding Arkie stones to my arsenal for a couple of reasons. Maybe a good sized Medium, for some some of my kitchen knives. I was also thinking about a black, for polishing more than anything. The steels I use mostly are D2, VG10, 154CM, and S30V. I have plenty of DMT's, an SM, and stuff to reprofile. I was just thinking about something different. If I am barking up the wrong tree, somebody tell me so. Hell, save me the money at least. Thanks guys
 
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L2bravo said:
Let me be a little more clear in my line of questioning. I was thinking about adding Arkie stones to my arsenal for a couple of reasons. Maybe a good sized Medium, for some some of my kitchen knives. I was also thinking about a black, for polishing more than anything. The steels I use mostly are D2, VG10, 154CM, and S30V. I have plenty of DMT's, an SM, and stuff to reprofile. I was just thinking about something different. If I am barking up the wrong tree, somebody tell me so. Hell, save me the money at least. Thanks guys
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With those steels, I wouldn't even think about using the coarser Arkansas stones. Pretty high chromium carbide content in each of them, and more so in the D2 and S30V (in addition to vanadium carbide in this one, which is even harder). Hardness of the carbides is what will make any substantial metal removal difficult, using natural stones. For grinding steels like these, synthetic stones in aluminum oxide or silicon carbide would work much better (think of Norton's India and Crystolon hones). I'd choose diamond for the S30V; it's even difficult to polish with more modern stones, so I don't think I'd even use the natural stones for polishing this steel.

For polishing and de-burring the others, the finishing stones can still be useful. I have used a small black hard Arkansas stone for de-burring and/or burnishing on VG-10. Still works more slowly, but allows somewhat more liberal use of pressure when polishing bevels (assuming angle is held consistently). That's part of why I like using them for these tasks. Doing the same with a ceramic hone would potentially create more burrs/wire edges than it fixes.


David
 
Welcome to the Buck Forum. Yes, measure it from the tip to front of the guard. Realize at that time Buck was doing much of the work by hand on their knives. Hence, you'll find some variations. (DM)
David Martin said:
We've had this before and the black is finer. Switch the order, Translucent then Black and it will be correct. DM
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"Classifications and grits vary with the chosen "authority" and, in my experience, can even vary with individual stones. The above numbers reflect, approximately, my personal stones, so I used them." Perhaps this should have been in 4" letters; red, maybe. I OFFERED MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND NOTHING MORE.
I used to worship rules and numbers and quoted authority like many in every society. Gave me a sense of security. Until I lived long enough and experienced enough exceptions to those rules not to have perfect trust in them. I did not try to mislead anyone. I only offered what I knew first-hand. Quoting gov't standards(broad enough to drive a truck through) and a retailer's standards(still reasonably broad) while I looked at an exception would have made me the deceiver. I felt the OP needed to understand that venturing into the realm natural products meant leaving behind the machine-stamped sameness of manmade products. I have placed repeated orders for same-grade stones from the same wholesalers and gotten objects that seemed to be totally unrelated. I seldom see two stones identical to one another. It's less that the OP's mileage may vary and more that he should expect it to.
I really don't care WHAT you've had before; I've probably had my stones longer than you've had your regulations.
YOUR black may be finer. MY translucent is finer.
I'll switch nothing. I gave the value of MY experience. All the opinions, rules, votes in the world can't change reality. General standards are just that: GENERAL.
I gave personally experienced evidence for whatever use someone asking for information might put it to. As far as exchanging my reality for your "correct" position,
I'm guessing you already know where to put that.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
Thanks! Did not know about this company. I learned a lot just browsing their website.
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No problem. I posted it trying to stay out of the "which is finer", "what grit" debate. And they have some of the nicest pieces of Arks i have seen. And to the OP, with higher carbide steels, Arkansas stones really only help with deburring. So get a Black or Translucent. Honestly, just get the "cheaper" of the two.

ETA: What OWE said basically. Need to learn to read or something...
 
fervens said:
No problem. I posted it trying to stay out of the "which is finer", "what grit" debate. And they have some of the nicest pieces of Arks i have seen. And to the OP, with higher carbide steels, Arkansas stones really only help with deburring. So get a Black or Translucent. Honestly, just get the "cheaper" of the two.

ETA: What OWE said basically. Need to learn to read or something...
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Yeah, great link. I had also previously believed the myth that all the good Arkansas stone quarries were depleted or abandoned and there were no real black stones around anymore. I don't know why that's such a pervasive idea (I believed it, too!). Nice to know there is still a guy mining and finishing these. Damn, the rarer grades in large sizes are expensive, though!

I'd love to get into naturals one day, Japanese naturals, Belgian coticules, this guy's Arkansas stones... but I've been holding myself back from that slippery slope for a long time and hope I can continue to do so. I've already got way more strops/stones/etc. than I actually need. Must... not... buy...
 
I think I will just skip this idea. I will buy things like a Spyderco UF bench stone, and maybe some Shaptons.
 
There are other natural stones you can try like thuringian, jasper, or finish whetstones that start out a bit cheaper.

L2bravo, you should try an arkansas. It is completely different than a spyderco. You can start of with smith's arkansas. Cheaper but will have the same effect.
 
Examining of your 4 grades of stones means little to me. I have the same 4 grades and arrived at a different conclusion. There is room here for differences. Beside I did not reach a conclusion about their grits based on my limited observations and use. I called and spoke with Dan at Dan's Arkansas Stones. He is the one that told me that order. I'll respect someone's knowledge with 30yrs. experience in a field, who's examined thousands of stones. If you want to argue call him. DM
 
Classifications and grits vary with the chosen "authority" and, in my experience, can even vary with individual stones. The above numbers reflect, approximately, my personal stones, so I used them.

Hopefully, for the last time, I quote my first statement in my first post. This would seem to reflect no desire to argue-quite the opposite. I did not try to impose my ratings on anyone's stones. I stated, in easily understandable terms, that they reflected my personal experience with my stones and that one could expect variations, both in ratings and in individual stone quality. Norton, for instance, in their PDF catalog, lists Hard Translucent Arkansas as 1500-2000 grit. Tell Dan to call them; maybe they can decide something.

In a rational world, this would have gone something like:
(Me) "In my experience, this has happened."
(You) "The authorities I believe say otherwise."
(Me) "Your authorities might well be correct, in general, however, I seem to have an exception to the rule."
(You) "Stranger things have happened. Happy sharpening."
(Me)"Happy sharpening to you, too."

THE END
 
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Perhaps your Black Arkansas is not an early stone, jet black in color. As it occurred to me some sights are now calling the grey Arkansas stone a 'Black Arkansas' or 'Surgical Black Arkansas'. These are not near as fine as the jet black stone. 1)Then in natural stones they vary (a little)and 2)the jet blacks are hard to come by today. 3)So, they market the Translucent as finer. I've seen this being done. DM
 
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