Article describes Wootz Damascus mfr. tech.

[hvas]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone else has looked at the January 2001 issue of Scientific American, on page 74 there is an article by John D. Verhoven and Alfred H. Pendray on manufacturing so-called "wootz" damascus, which he claims is a lost technique of muslim bladesmiths(p 75), and also a superior form of damascus over what you can get now, which he calls Welded Damascus.

I won't transcribe the process since its pretty long and Sci American is a common enough publication. What I'd like to know is 1.) Do we know who these guys are? 2.) Does what they say seem valid to you knifemakers? 3.) If (2) is true, when are we going to start seeing this hip new damascus on the market? Given, though, they leave out some crucial information in the article, most likely they are looking for a patent of some sort.

hvas

 

[Dexter Ewing]

Moving to Blade Discussion Forum...

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[Esav Benyamin]

I haven't read the SA article yet, but there were a few previous Bladeforums threads on wootz:

Go to http://www.brisa.multi.fi/start3.html and scan down the left-hand column till you come to "Wootz steel". At the bottom of the page, you will find links to articles, including these:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
http://metalrg.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/

 

[fmann]

The author has pretty good credentials and the fact that his work has been published a fair number of times means that it passed the peer review of the journal -- other material science experts and professionals reviewed his manuscript, and after editing and further review, it was accepted for publication.

In the SA article, it's basically to confirm that their hypothesis can be translated in to a real object with the properties of ancient Damascus blades.

[This message has been edited by fmann (edited 12-30-2000).]

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Al Pendray is president of the Knifemakers Guild, so he is certainly recognized by his peers as someone who knows a lot about knives and steel. I've seen his steel, microphotographs of its structure, and read a couple of his and Dr. Verhoven's papers. Without pretending to understand the totality of the metallurgy discussed, it is certainly credible science recognized by metallurgy academics worldwide. I have also correspended with another scientist in Russia who also has a Wootz (called Bulat in Russia) process. I understand there is a further group in Finland who has made wootz steel.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
www.hossom.com/gallery
The New Tom & Jerry Show

 

[Emanym Ton]

oops

Shawn

 

[Dennis H]

Some months ago I had a discussion with dr Perttula at Tampere Polytechnic in Finland.
As he knew I am selling materials for knife making he sent some Wootz steel bars for me to try to introduce to the public. If you are interested take a look at www.brisa.multi.fi and Wootz steel in menu left. I myself know very little about the metallurgics, but I can arrange contact to dr Perttula for further information.

kind regards Dennis

 

[Walt Welch]

Verhoven's article in Sci Am is basically an easier to read version of the JOM article, plus the work of Al Pendray, who is shown with forged Wootz cakes and also forging of a Wootz knife.

Verhoven is not looking for a patent. He has one: Verhoeven patent #5185044

Before you get all excited about Wootz, remember that it was a cutting edge steel several hundred years ago. Take a look at the Rc values for the edges: 23 to 37, and Rc of the center of transverse sections: 5 to 9. By today's standards, the stuff is dead soft.

Read the article; you will find that this is because of the small trace amounts of carbide formers (Mo and V); the highest concentration of V was 270 ppm. This is 0.02%
Today's alloys have much higher amounts of alloying elements, and thus are much harder. Even a simple traditional ingot steel like M2 has 100 times the V in it.

The article is good, however, in that it elucidates why Wootz came into being, and why the three secrets of manufacture became lost (the JOM article is best on this subject).

Walt

Fixed the link Walt

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 01-02-2001).]

 

[Tommi]

Rosellis wootz is hard = Rc 65-66.
Sword blades shouldn't be compared to knife blades. Target when tempering swordblade is different than in knife making. My comprehension (wery quick look) was that these were sword blades.

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[HJK]

Where can one acquire a Wootz knife?

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

HJK - Al Pendray has been making knives for a long while. I think you will enjoy working with him on a one.

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" The real art of living is too keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post.
In memory of James Mattis