Assisted Opening Knives -- Are They Gray Area?

[darkego]

Hello,

This is my first time posting here. I have done a lot of forum creeping though over the past year and i have read through many different discussions so i thought i would finally pose a question of my own.

This questions is regarding just how legal assisted opening knives are. I live in Minnesota where one of the items mentioned under its Dangerous weapons law is "a switch blade knife opening automatically."

I decided not long ago that i wanted to get my father a nice folding EDC knife. After doing some research, i decided on a US made Kershaw Leek.

However as most of you know, the Leek uses "SpeedSafe" tech which can be opened with a simple push of the protruding flipper. This is very similar to pressing a button on the hilt of a switchblade.

After reading many different forum posts pertaining to assisted opening knives, and reading Kershaws FAQ's, i understand the differences that separate the two. Fundamental they are different to an knife educated person, but to a law enforcement officer who knows nothing about knife styles? This looks like a switch blade.

I sent an email to my local station asking their stance on assisted opening knives and i have yet to hear back. I sent a copy of the email to my local sheriffs office and their replay said i would have to heir an attorney if i wanted "legal opinions."

If i were carrying it, i would accept the potential risk and carry one. But since this is a gift for my Father, who might also have questions based on its legality, I'm trying to get as knowledgeable on the topic as i can.

In your opinion, how gray area are Assisted Opening knives? As anyone had any LEO troubles in any states where switchblades are illegal?

 

[monger4142]

get a flipper that isn't assisted, problem solved.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

There is always a chance that you have to explain to an idiotic police officer - I wouldn't worry about it though. You/him just have to be respectful and smile while letting the officer know that you have researched the knife laws (chances are the officer has not and is just bored) and it is your utility and hunting knife.

If it doesn't look like an old school stiletto or OTF and it doesn't have a longer blade length than allowed the chances are very slim you would ever have a problem. It's a small chance regardless that an officer ever sees your father even wearing or using the knife.

Live your life and get him the gift

editing to add: idiotic police officer = one who is going to bug you or another about a pocket knife, not all of them. I love and respect the people who serve in law enforcement with intelligence, integrity, and good-will.

 

[KennyB]

get a flipper that isn't assisted, problem solved.

"I'm worried if this knife is legal"

"Don't get a knife. Problem solved."


If you really do want to just go the non A/O route, you can take the torsion bar out of the Leek before resorting to buying an entirely different knife.

 

[-Ranger-]

What separates an "switchblade" verses an assisted opening knife is the mechanics behind the way it opens.

A switchblade is released mechanically by springs or centrifugal force when a lever is pressed on the handle; either out the side or out the front. The blade in an assisted opening knife is normally held in place by one or two torsion bars. You have to manually open the blade a certain amount before the spring action takes over and opens the knife the rest of the way. This is what makes them legal.

On the flipper design common to many Kershaws, the flipper is still technically part of the blade that the person is using to initially open the blade part way, so it is still a completely legal design.

 

[Morrow]

Hello,

This is my first time posting here. I have done a lot of forum creeping though over the past year and i have read through many different discussions so i thought i would finally pose a question of my own.

This questions is regarding just how legal assisted opening knives are. I live in Minnesota where one of the items mentioned under its Dangerous weapons law is "a switch blade knife opening automatically."

I decided not long ago that i wanted to get my father a nice folding EDC knife. After doing some research, i decided on a US made Kershaw Leek.

However as most of you know, the Leek uses "SpeedSafe" tech which can be opened with a simple push of the protruding flipper. This is very similar to pressing a button on the hilt of a switchblade.

After reading many different forum posts pertaining to assisted opening knives, and reading Kershaws FAQ's, i understand the differences that separate the two. Fundamental they are different to an knife educated person, but to a law enforcement officer who knows nothing about knife styles? This looks like a switch blade.

I sent an email to my local station asking their stance on assisted opening knives and i have yet to hear back. I sent a copy of the email to my local sheriffs office and their replay said i would have to heir an attorney if i wanted "legal opinions."

If i were carrying it, i would accept the potential risk and carry one. But since this is a gift for my Father, who might also have questions based on its legality, I'm trying to get as knowledgeable on the topic as i can.

In your opinion, how gray area are Assisted Opening knives? As anyone had any LEO troubles in any states where switchblades are illegal?

What city and state do you live in? There is a subforum here devoted entirely to knife laws. Learn your state and local laws and you'll be able to make a good decision.

 

[bpiatt]

I am sure that your father will handle and use the knife responsibly. Assisted knives do not fall under the description of an automatic knife by law. Most officers of the Law that I have encountered are very reasonable people. If they did question the knife I am sure they would understand how it differs from an automatic if your father explained it to him. Worst case scenario they take the knife away from him and he gets an appearance ticket to appear in court. The case would be thrown out upon explanation of what the knife really is due to the fact that assisted opening knives are not switchblades. I highly doubt that he will have any issues, but there is always that small chance.


I say get him the knife you want him to have. As long as hes not out mugging people it is highly unlikely there will be any issues with the law.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Unless your state (Minnesota) has specifically amended it's definition of a 'switchblade' to account for assisted knives, chances are, in the minds of some LEOs, attorneys, judges, etc., it might very well be a 'gray area'.

You might take a look at the site below, to read a description of how the Federal Switchblade Act was amended recently, to more accurately define a switchblade (to exclude assisted knives from the former definition). For many states, the definition of 'switchblade' in their own laws was often derived directly from the Federal definition (sometimes verbatim). Depending upon how it's defined in your state, it may or may not be up to the 'interpretation' of individuals (police, lawyers, judges) in the legal system. Worst case, if there's no specific definition of a 'switchblade' in your state law, then it's left completely up to the individual cop who arrests you, the individual D.A. who prosecutes you, and the individual judge who presides at the trial.

http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=98&Itemid=1

Edited to add:

More often than not, as others here have mentioned, it may never become an issue for a responsible citizen who exercises discretion in public. On the other hand, even good, responsible citizens have been victimized & criminalized by over-zealous individuals in the legal system, on occasion. It's best to know exactly (PRECISELY) what laws affect you in your area, and use the appropriate wise judgement.

As always, there's local laws to consider too (city/county). They may be much more restrictive than state law. Especially in large urban areas.

 

[RevDevil]

What separates an "switchblade" verses an assisted opening knife is the mechanics behind the way it opens.

A switchblade is released mechanically by springs or centrifugal force when a lever is pressed on the handle; either out the side or out the front. The blade in an assisted opening knife is normally held in place by one or two torsion bars. You have to manually open the blade a certain amount before the spring action takes over and opens the knife the rest of the way. This is what makes them legal.

On the flipper design common to many Kershaws, the flipper is still technically part of the blade that the person is using to initially open the blade part way, so it is still a completely legal design.

True, but the law might be interpreted a different way by the arresting officer, then what? Too late for technicalities.

 

[darkego]

What city and state do you live in? There is a subforum here devoted entirely to knife laws. Learn your state and local laws and you'll be able to make a good decision.

Current Residence:
State: Minnesota
City: Brooklyn Park (about 20 min from Minneapolis)
County: Hennepin

Anyone knowledgeable of weapon laws or enforcement in this area?

Depending upon how it's defined in your state, it may or may not be up to the 'interpretation' of individuals (police, lawyers, judges) in the legal system.

Is there any way to look this up? Other then 609.02 and 609.66, i cant find anything. I have tried posting on police fourms and have been more or less told "if you have to ask then dont do it." Frankly i don't like that line of thought.

As always, there's local laws to consider too (city/county). They may be much more restrictive than state law. Especially in large urban areas.

How on earth can i do this? Other then hiring an attorney? Since the local law enforcement does not seem to be any help. I dunno what else i can do.

Also for reference, here is the blade in question.

~-= Link =-~

 

[Rich S]

I carry a copy of the new federal law in my wallet in case an officer ever questions my assisted opener. Of course, you can still get in trouble due to state laws.
-----------------
All assisted opening knives are excluded from prohibition by the 1958 Federal Switchblade Act. President Barack Obama signed an amendment to the Act late Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009.

The amendment (H.R, 2892) changes the Act this way:

Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to -
(1) any common carrier or contract carrier, with respect to any
switchblade knife shipped, transported, or delivered for shipment
in interstate commerce in the ordinary course of business;
(2) the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution,
possession, or introduction into interstate commerce, of
switchblade knives pursuant to contract with the Armed Forces;
(3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting
in the performance of his duty;
(4) the possession, and transportation upon his person, of any
switchblade knife with a blade three inches or less in length by
any individual who has only one arm; or
(5) a knife that contains a spring, detent, or other mechanism
designed to create a bias toward closure of the blade and that
requires exertion applied to the blade by hand, wrist, or arm to
overcome the bias toward closure to assist in opening the knife.

---------------------

Rich

 

[tom19176]

Write an email and or letter to the local DA. They are the real interpetor of the law, and they are the ones who decide to allow a charge to go forward ( or not) if you are arrested.

Rich while the federal law is nice, I think that would do more harm than good when discussing it with an officer. The federal law allows to to carry a loaded pistol, but in NYS you will spend the next 31/2 years making license plates for our cars if you do with that football player.......

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Write an email and or letter to the local DA. They are the real interpetor of the law, and they are the ones who decide to allow a charge to go forward ( or not) if you are arrested.

I think this is very good advice. The local prosecuting attorney is who'll be using the 'law' (whatever it turns out to be) against you, in the event something goes wrong. They'll definitely know where to look for the applicable statutes. And hopefully they'll give you an idea of how it'll be interpreted.

I've been curious about this topic, and I've not found any specific definition for "switchblade", either in the state code or the city code (Brooklyn Park, MN). The only references I see, to a switchblade, are in reference to it's classification as an illegal/deadly weapon. But, there's nothing I see anywhere that defines what a switchblade is (in specific terms of how it works, or how it's different from any other knife). To me, that's got 'gray area' written all over it. This is what I was getting at earlier, in reference to the 'worst case' scenario (no definition at all; leaves it completely open to individual interpretation).

Here are some links I looked at:
http://www.brooklynpark.org/sitepages/pid173.php

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway....m$f=templates$3.0&vid=amlegal:brooklynpark_mn

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway....s?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm$3.0#JD_136.01

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.66&year=2010

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/attorney/faq_home.asp

(from the "Frequently Asked Questions" page at the link above)
Hennepin County Attorney's Office - (612) 348-5561

 

[darkego]

I think this is very good advice. The local prosecuting attorney is who'll be using the 'law' (whatever it turns out to be) against you, in the event something goes wrong. They'll definitely know where to look for the applicable statutes. And hopefully they'll give you an idea of how it'll be interpreted.

(from the "Frequently Asked Questions" page at the link above)
Hennepin County Attorney's Office - (612) 348-5561 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting

Ok so how should i go about doing this? Can i ask him the question in its entirety with details on the knife and everything? Or will this result in asking for to specificity of legal advice? Or just ask abut how assisted opening knives differ from "switch blade knife, spring blade knife, push button knifes" or?

I have never wrote to my local prosecuting attorney and have no idea what kinda of information I'm entitled too. Any suggestions?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Ok so how should i go about doing this? Can i ask him the question in its entirety with details on the knife and everything? Or will this result in asking for to specificity of legal advice? Or just ask abut how assisted opening knives differ from "switch blade knife, spring blade knife, push button knifes" or?

I have never wrote to my local prosecuting attorney and have no idea what kinda of information I'm entitled too. Any suggestions?

If it were me, I'd simply ask him/her if they recognize, from a legal standpoint, what the differences are between a 'switchblade' and an assisted-opening knife. Use the knife you're interested in buying as the example. If they don't/can't differentiate between the two, that's a BIG red flag. Also, ask them specifically how they define a 'switchblade', and if they reference that definition from a specific source (which source?), such as the definition in the Federal Switchblade Act of 1958.

Something I'd do first, just to satisfy my own curiosity, would be to shop around the local area (within the jurisdiction in question), and see what stores, if any, actually carry/sell the types of knife that you're interested in (specifically, assisted openers). If you don't see any at the local shops, that might be an indicator of the local attitudes toward these knives. If, on the other hand, you see 'em all over the place, that might also shed some light on how often the local authorities see these knives, and how casually (or not) they might view them.

You're entitled to fully understand the laws that affect you. They should be willing to answer any questions you might have. If they're not willing to help, I'd also see that as a red flag regarding the attitude of local legal authorities. You might not hear what you want to hear, but if you pay close attention to what they say, and how they say it, I think you're guaranteed to get a clearer idea of how you want to proceed.

 

[tom19176]

Don't weight too much on what is sold, as what happened in NYC recently, stores sometimes sell things for years that get you arrested as soon as you walk out of the store. Asking the DA and getting it in writing is the best as it is a affirmative defense in almost all states to be able to show that a government authority in charge of enforcing a law has issued you an opinion before you violated the law. This is actually in the NYS law, and there is case law in other states saying the same.

 

[joe-bob]

Wasn't there an amendment to the Federal law (last year?) that clarified the definition, and in doing so, separated AO nives from any "switchblade" classification? I know that Texas did.

They are no longer a "gray area" as a point of fact. That doesn't mean the issue has at long last been cleared up.

 

[tom19176]

There was a federal law clarification, but that has nothing to do with his state/local laws....

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Some states (Texas being one), in the wording of their own laws, took word-for-word the definition in the original federal law. Prior to the federal amendment, Texas amended their own law to exclude assisted openers from the 'switchblade' classification (with the help of Knife Rights & AKTI; Thanks!!). I think some or all of the revised language used in the Texas amendment was used in amending the federal law (again, thanks to Knife Rights/AKTI). So, even now that the federal law has been amended, the other states would still have to follow suit in amending their own to match. Assuming, of course, they still accept and agree with the amended federal definition.

 

[audiopile]

One of the many reasons i and a legion of others are somewhat fanatical about KAI/Kershaw/ZT knives is the simple fact that their customer service is outstanding.Kershaw won't know what's going on down to the DA or city attorney level. But they have got a pretty good idea of what states have what history in terms of their products. What is frustrating is that i can walk across the street and go from anything under 4 " is legal to a city with a we will prosecute anything over 3 " ordnance.
As someone as old as or maybe even older than your father - I find being able to answer the "ever been arrested" question with just plain" no" pretty valuable and a time saver. Sure I may still sit and wait for the officer to run me thru the nat'l wants/warrants list - but typically within 10 min. I'm on my way simply because I'm boring from a LE perspective. This becomes a big deal when I'm armed on a customer's property with their permission and encounter LE - never fun for me or the officer(s) and a situation I really try to avoid.
Talk to Kershaw - this is a insanely busy time for them -so give them a few days to get back to you - but research this before you've got to bail Dad out.