At what point does a Liner Lock become a Frame Lock?

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Oct 26, 2007
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I'm a little confused here.

For example my Kershaw JYDII most people seem to consider a liner lock, while my Kershaw Groove is considered a frame lock.

The lock bars appear to be the same thickness, if anything I would say the JYD might be slightly thicker.

The only difference that I can see between the two knives is that on the groove, the G10 doesn't cover the whole handle. So it is considered an "overlay",

So what makes some knives have a "frame" and some have "liners"? :confused:
 
When it is built like a Strider AR or the ZT 200 imho. keepem sharp

PS Onatario was building a Hossom designed knife that was on a par with above mentioned knives too, extremely over built for a liner lock. Probably should Buck/Strider 880's too
 
It's simple really. Is the frame of the knife the lock, or is it the liner within the handle?

ZT0302 vs ZT0350 is a perfect example. Spyderco Military vs Sebenza is another.
 
Like the above, a framelock is where part of the frame moves over behind the blade tang to act as the lock. A liner lock has a liner that moves over behind the tang to do the same thing. Generally speaking a framelock's lock is usually thicker, and when gripped in the hand it is exposed and vunerable to the grip of your hand squeezing the lock more towards the lockup position. On a liner lock the handle impedes your ability to actually squeeze the lock. It is really just a way to describe that the thickness of the liner is greater than you normally see when you say the knife is almost like a framelock!:D
 
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A frame lock is safer even if it's the same thickness as a liner lock because you're gripping the lock when the blade is open, helping to hold the lock in place. Also the pocket clip is often placed over the lock bar which furthers helps to hold the lock in place when the blade is open.
 
There are some very well made liner locks out there, but all in all a frame lock is a very tough thing to beat.

A liner lock will usually have a material covering the entire handle. You will notice that on the inside of the handle there will be a steel/titanium liner, that is the liner lock. Usually liner locks are thinner than a frame lock.

Frame locks are where the frame of the handle (usually 410 stainless steel or titanium) merge inwards and locks the knife open.

Frame locks tend to be a lot more popular due to their durability and ease of maintenance. Plus, if you have a gorilla grip for mits, you get that much more safety with a frame lock :D
 
I wouldn't say framelocks are much more popular given there are many more liner locks on the market. They're more popular on bladeforums, amongst knife afficionados.
 
The only thing that has come close to an answer so far is that a frame lock is exposed to your grip and a liner lock is not.

But if that was the case, the Groove would be a liner lock, cause the G10 covers almost all of the lock.
 
.............
So what makes some knives have a "frame" and some have "liners"? :confused:

In a folder, the blade pivot and therefore the blade is held by the handle. if there is a liner and the liner is used to lock the tang of the blade it is a liner lock. If the is no liner and the actual handle scale locks the tang of the blade it is a frame lock. Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but I believe that this is the fundamental definition.

The thickness of the liner or frame is an element of the design and does not define whether the lock is frame lock or liner lock.
 
As mentioned earlier, the difference is not a question of strength or thickness, but simply placement.

There is no difference in the lock performance of either in nearly all knives.

In many framelocks, the clip interferes with your ability to hold the lock closed with your hand.

In many liner locks, the liner is exposed and receives the same finger pressure that framelocks supposedly benefit from.

In either of these cases, adjustments in grip can actually unlock the knife, where a conventional liner lock would be immune.

Frame locks are generally thinner, due to design, while liner locks, in theory, have the potential for better grip.

Lockbar thickness, past a certain (and mild) point, has very little relationship to lock stability. A huge lockbar will not be more reliable, in the real world, than a medium sized one. This is because both will be far more tough and reliable than you will need, and further, cross-lock stability is based on many things, not only lockbar thickness.

The difference, in performance, of a good framelock and a good liner lock, is virtually entirely in people's heads. When liner locks were being made by ever cheap manufacturer out there, frame locks were starting to come out on some very high end models and still have a tendency to occupy the high end. The production quality made the huge difference back then. But now you can find Strider liner locks, etc. I personally find Benchmade liner locks to be brilliantly designed, having owned liner locks from all of the big three and many other companies.

But the JYDII lock is quite nice too.

Cross locks, as a genus, aren't particularly good not because of their integrity, but because other locks can be as strong or stronger while being easier to deploy and reclaim. The axis, BBL and of course, the hawk lock, come to mind. Not to mention that weird breed that is the compression lock--much stronger, much more reliable and much easier to use than its predecessors.
 
As mentioned earlier, the difference is not a question of strength or thickness, but simply placement.

It still seems pretty subjective to me.

If my Boker Trance had a G10 scale added to the back, would it suddenly become a liner lock instead of a frame lock?

bok-bo590-matte-tn.jpg
 
It still seems pretty subjective to me.

If my Boker Trance had a G10 scale added to the back, would it suddenly become a liner lock instead of a frame lock?

....snip.....

Precisely!!! :D Because then it would be a "liner," on the inside of the G-10 handle. A very thick liner mind you, but a liner nonetheless ;)
 
I think, IMHO, that Artfully Martial answered this very well. Remember the same hand movement/pressure that can secure a frame lock can also dislodge it. A knife is seldom held in a death grip, so you need to think about how your hand rests/moves/interacts with the lockbar when actually using a knife. Thickness is important, primarily because it reliably puts the pivot point of the lockbar at the rear if thick, or somewhere in the middle if thin because of flexure. The rear pivot of the lockbar provides for more reliable engagement at the rear of the blade due to the angle being more accurately maintained to mate with the angle on the blade. Hope that makes some sense.
 
The main difference is that a framlock has your hand keeping it secure and tight under your grip... And the blade will not fail where mainly linerlocks can... There is a huge difference in security...
Matt
 
I still maintain that on the knives I mentioned the locks are framelock strong, with the added feature of having a nice big chunk of g10 in the way or over the very thick liner, which imho makes it much better than just a frame lock. Simply because the g10 protects the very thick piece of steel that is locking the knife in place. You know you won't be able to move it as easily cause the g10 is taking the brunt of the force before hitting the liner. I rest my case, no more discussion needed as thick liner locks with nice and thick g10 beat hands down any framelock ever made before or since this thread was started. :D keepem sharp:eek:
 
I think there's a bit of a gray area when it comes to knives with partial scales (like the Groove) when there is a thick frame/liner involved. I'm rather inclined to call the Groove a frame-lock, because of how thick the steel handle is and how the scales don't extend to the very edge, nor do they surround the pivot pin.

Seeing as how the scales are functioning primarily for enhancing the grip as opposed to providing structural integrity--that being provided primarily by the steel frame--it seems to me as though you could remove the scales and the knife would be nearly as strong as without them.

Basically I think that the thing that defines a frame lock is when the frame is the primary structural element. It's a liner lock when the scales play a major role in strengthening the piece (in conjunction with that provided by the liners).

Does that make sense or am I just rambling? :confused::foot:
 
I rest my case, no more discussion needed as thick liner locks with nice and thick g10 beat hands down any framelock ever made before or since this thread was started. :D keepem sharp:eek:

Um how bout.. Wrong!:)
Perhaps you prefer a thick liner with some g-10... but that is all it is.. preference...
The pressure applied from the lock bar on many liner locks I have owned is only maybe 1/2 of that of a good framelock...
 
Preference is OK. There's an ass for every seat as they say. Pick whatever you feel most confident in. There is no "right" answer. We all believe what we feel most confident with.
 
The main difference is that a framlock has your hand keeping it secure and tight under your grip... And the blade will not fail where mainly linerlocks can... There is a huge difference in security...
Matt

Properly designed liner locks (i.e. Spyderco Military) are just as secure as a properly designed frame lock. Crappy design of either is just unsafe. I think that because liner locks are easy to make, but hard to make well, they've been given a bad rap by a lot of cheap chinese knives.

Personally, I've never had a liner lock fail on my, but I also don't go around wacking the spine off. ;)

It really is a preference thing. Liner locks are harder to make because of the close tolerances involved in properly executing one. Sometimes a frame lock is desired to keep the overall profile of the knife slim.
 
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