ATS-34 or 440c ???

Alain M-D

Alain M-D

Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
237
I am a newbie in knifemaking (I have only make 5 knives with O-1 steel) and I would like to buy some steel for my future knives (Stainless) but I dont know which steel to choose... According to what I saw in many forums, two steel seem to be most used in custom knifemaking; ATS-34 and 440c.

But, why choose ATS-34 instead of 440c ? Is one of both are more stainless (rust resistant) or its keeps edge sharp better ? And 154 CM, Is this better than the ATS-34? (it is a little more expensive, but seem to be almost identical)... Are some of them are harder to work (or grind)

And all other steel like BG-42, S30V, CPM3V, Talonite, Stellite 6K. Why I will choose one of these steels?

Thanks for your help !

Alain M-D
 
Try them all and see what you like, ats 34 is generally considered to be a little more brittle than 440c, and less stain resistant. IT does however seem to hold an edge longer in most cases. 154cm and ats34 are almost the same thing, ats34 is made in Japan, and 154cm is made in the US. Supposedly 154cm is a cleaner steel I don't exactly know what this means, but so many people feel like it is superior right now that I think there has to be something to it.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
I would go with ATS-34. Using optimum heat treatments for edge holding and toughness, I think ATS-34 might have a gain do to some Mo carbide forming instead of as much Cr carbide like in 440C. Mo carbide is smaller. Hence more toughness. Just a brief thought. I believe ATS-34 can match 440C in corrosion resistance as long as it is not heated within embrittlement tempering range (very common), which also causes a subsequent loss on corrosion resistance. Some thoughts.
 
I tend to prefer 440C mostly because it's been around for a long time and is a tried and true stainless steel. Plus, I can heat treat it myself with exellent results without an expensive "paragon" oven (tips from Ed Fowler,thank you Ed). I prefer to do all thing in house. 440C does the job and keeps my customers happy. That pretty much covers it.

J.
http://www.mountainhollow.net
web update complete
 
my shop is three blocks from the ocean and i can watch stuff rust while i work on it:D ats-34 is not as rust resistant as 440c. it does how a edge a little better. i make alot of culinary pieces, 440c works better here, but it depends on what your making and who your making it for. for pro, chefs i use ats/154 series, for home cooks 440c is the way to go. thats my 2 1/2 cents:)
 
Sure Dave. I use a rosebud tip on a oxy/acet. torch to heat the blade to nonmagnetic, checking it with a magnet. After the blade hits critical I quench in a combination of motor oil and ATF. I don't heat my oil since 440C is also air quenchable (the air is room temp so, I figured the oil could be room temp. also, my .02). I do this three times, then draw the blades in the oven three times(350 deg. for 2hrs.). After I'm finished I put the blades in the freezer overnight. I've heard from quite a few makers that the freezer part helps. I don't quite know why but, it doesn't hurt. The triple quench method Ed Fowler mentioned on these forums (you can find it in the archives) takes the place of the tempering oven. I use the same method on high carbons(triple quench, triple temper & freeze) except I edge quench in "Goddard's Goop". I've tested 440C blades done with the oven and the method above and they have performed at the same level every time. Plus, I get to play with the hot wrench more.

J.
http://www.mountainhollow.net
update complete
 
J that's great, thanks very much. I've been sending 440C out, and while the cost is a factor the time lost is a bigger one. In fact, I switched to O1 pretty much because of that. Now I have two great steels to use. I'm going to give this a try, sounds like a winner.

Dave

PS - That "goop" stinks! :D
 
J., very interesting post. At first I thought, "that's way out in left field". It's obviously far different than "the common knowledge". But then, I started to think "why not?" Recent discussions with a ABS JS concluded with the agreement that we have understudied HT of steels with respect to knives, and that we need to think outside the box alot more. The conclusion was we don't know if we can't get alot more out of alot of steels by doing some experimentation. Since I am an old fart who's used 440C for a long time, I've decided in my retirement to do some studying and try to improve the HT of 440C.
Thanks for giving me food for thought with this approach radically different from mine!!!
 
I really wish I could take credit for coming up with a new idea, Mike, but I was doing things the way most everyone else was with 440C until I was on a Forum thread discussing heat treating stainless steels. I wish to hell I could remember the link but, I know it's in the archives somewhere. That was when Ed piped in praising a group of us for experimenting and told us what he tried years ago(triple quenching 440C). I tried it; I'm big on going my own way but, I figured Ed Fowler's passing tips, I should probably give it a try. Since then that's what I do. I haven't been a constant(=almost full-time)maker for a long time but, my customers are happy, they tell me the blades perform wonderfully and from my tests, they do. Again, thanks Ed. I still love the fact that information is passed so freely between makers in the knifemaking community, hell most people won't even talk to there own neighbors. I'm glad I watched that Conan movie so many times when I was a kid and fell in love with steel.

J.
http://www.mountainhollow.net
update complete
 
This is good news,HT your own stainless. I have made knives
for several years, of course only a few a year. I have always
thought I must have a HT oven to do so, therfore have sent them
off to a treater. Now I will try this method. Have done 01 before
with sucess.
I am so glad I loged on here today. Thanks a lot guys.
 
I would not want to quench in room temp. oil if it is optional to air or oil quench. Both may be at room temp. but the oil will sink the heat very quickly compared to still air. I would be fearful of too much thermal shock causing microscopic cracking in the steel. I believe I'd heat the oil to about 140 F. unless indicated otherwise my the vendor. But what do I know.

Roger
 
_Now this is just my 2 cent worth only.
for SS, 154CM all the way for me :D
.5% less Chromium then ATS34 yes will rust a little
bit faster but
we have to to have an excuse to play with our knives
don't we??:p
anyway 440c just for me is the stuff some of the
cheaper Japanese knives are coming with.
( it may be just in my head) but
I just got that mind set of a bad rep for low end stuff
don't get me wrong I started out with 440C when I started
to use SS. so if it's selling go for it.
ATS34 is now made in the states
it was a copy close to 154CM witch was designed for the
US military jet engines I believe, they don't spare the bucks
in anything they do and so it's what I use,
440c Is tuff stuff but won't hold an edge
to 154CM._ you need to Liquid nitrogen freeze high carbon SS to -300
to get a good temper. the stuff was designed to be sub zeroed
_ way lower than
-30 deg, it won't hurt it, but it's not helping a lot ether..
get a Dewar and visit the welding supply store, LN is cheap
and you'll get up 30%+ more edge holding on it.
that's a big plus for a cheap investment. and you'll be
knowing your customer is getting more for his or her money.
just 2 more cent from me.
:)
 
There are many "inexpensive" (trying to be nice here) knives that are stamped 440. If that is the case it is probably 440A or B with less carbon content, which would make for a less favorable blade. If someone is using "C" with the higher carbon content, they'll stamp it 440C. Just a tid bit.

J.
http://www.mountainhollow.net
 
J
there are many 440 grades but looking at it from the
customers point of view,there is a lot more inexpensive
knives made with the 440's than the 34ats and 154cm steels
one reason is that they are already harder then the
440/c to work with and cost of it for another.
ofcourse you have the cmp-440v good stuff and bigger money,
But you still have the mind set of cheaper blades
with 440 stamped on them.
don't get me wrong I think all steel has it's place for many different reasons.
it's the mind set here I'm regarding to.
I will use 440C if the customer wants it but I use it
very little. but that's just me and my opinion only.
:footinmou
 
J. Glad you brought up home heat treating of 440C, I needed to have a personal fillet knife for next weekend fishing trip,with not enought time to send out for heat treat, so i tried Ed's method,I'm impressed. Cut a 2x4 in half, no damage to blade,tried it on brass rod flex test, tested fine..Blade is 9"long flat ground,distal taper..Missed getting the whole blade hard on first quench,tip was hardening fine,I found i really had to get the thin blade in the quench fast as it dispated the heat fast.Hope to test it on some salmon next weekend..
 
Walt- I've only tried this method on 440C. I would like to see if Ed's method works on other stainless steels as well but, I just haven't had the time to play around with it right now. If anyone else has, I'm sure they'll pipe in.

Allen- Glad to hear you tried and tested it. Now the only thing to worry about is catching the fish.:D

J.
http://www.mountainhollow.net
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top