Ats-34

J

jagger67

Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
191
While cruising the pages of knifelegends.com, a site with VERY few knives under 2K and many knives topping 10k, I noticed a very high percentage of the steels used as ATS-34. Was wondering why this would be. What is there about ATS-34 that makes it so popular for the very high end or art knives?
 
Theres nothing wrong with ATS-34. Many high priced knives are also made of 440C steel. It may be that these 2 steels polish well. Also most of these priced knives are not going to be used and even if they were the steel is fine. I would think that 99% of people could'nt tell the difference between ATS-34 and CPM154 or (pick the latest super steel). I know I would'nt.
 
I didn't think there was anything wrong with AST-34, Robb. I was just wondering if there was something special about it that makes it such a frequent choice in the very high end knives. Is/has it been used much in knives that the average guy can afford. You also use the term "super steel". I see that term used a lot on this forum and am curious what determines a super steel? I have seen MANY steels designated as "super steels". Maybe it would be easier to ask the opposite - what steels would NOT be considered "super steels"?
 
i,ve been watching customs from dark ages[70s] .higher end collector knives that are made showing super polish use 440c & ats34. d2 will not mirror polish & other super alloys require so much more effort & time to get a mirror polish, makers steer away from them. knives costing thousands of dollars are usually going in collections to be displayed. most carbon steels take great mirror polish but oxidation is such a concern that collector knives are not usually made from carbon. exception is some of the hand forged beautys. many of high end art knives are still made from 440c since it's got such a proven track record.
 
Super steel refers to most steels that have a lot of numbers and letters or combinations of both in the name of the steel , thus justifying the increased cost and 'forum coolness factor'.

:D MerryChristmas !

Tostig
 
ATS-34 is a rather expensive steel due to the high molybdenum content. The carbides in the steel are small and uniform, allowing it to take a fine polished edge. It takes a mirror polish easier than many, and with a good custom heat treatment is a wonderful performer. I prefer the uglier high vanadium steels for hard work, but for general use and pretty, ATS-34 is tough to beat in my book.
 
ATS-34 = 154CM
CPM154 = RWL-34 [These are the powder steel versions of the above]
These are basically 440C with Mo added. They are excellent steels ,especially the powder versions ,with CPM154 a favorite of mine. I would not call them "super steels" leaving that title to steels like SGPS of Fallkniven.
 
Tostig said:
Super steel refers to most steels that have a lot of numbers and letters or combinations of both in the name of the steel , thus justifying the increased cost and 'forum coolness factor'.

:D MerryChristmas !

Tostig
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call 8Cr13MoV (one of the longest alphanumeric named steels out there) a super steel! :D
 
yablanowitz said:
ATS-34 is a rather expensive steel due to the high molybdenum content.
Click to expand...

ATS-34 is actually cheaper (in price) than 154cm or S30v.

a 1/8 X 1-1/2 x 36 bar of ATS-34 will run ya about $28 , while 154CM is about $37 and S30v about $60. ( last prices I recall on CPM-D2 was about $45 )
 
I wouldn't consider any of the "alphabet soup" steels "super steels." I'd reserve that for the high-vanadium powdered steels.
 
mete said:
ATS-34 = 154CM
CPM154 = RWL-34 [These are the powder steel versions of the above]
These are basically 440C with Mo added. They are excellent steels ,especially the powder versions ,with CPM154 a favorite of mine. I would not call them "super steels" leaving that title to steels like SGPS of Fallkniven.
Click to expand...

I keep hearing that, but the steel charts say it isn't quite true. Maybe the manganese, silicon and sulfur in ATS-34 don't have any effect and are just included to use up existing stockpiles of raw materials. I'm not a metallurgist, I'm just a poor working schmuck, so I really don't know.
 
yablanowitz said:
I keep hearing that, but the steel charts say it isn't quite true. Maybe the manganese, silicon and sulfur in ATS-34 don't have any effect and are just included to use up existing stockpiles of raw materials. I'm not a metallurgist, I'm just a poor working schmuck, so I really don't know.
Click to expand...

AATS34 is vacuum melted, don't know if 154CM is. I remember reading about 10 years ago that custom makers were gravitating toward ATS34 because it was so super-clean. That makes sense: I would hate to put 20 hours into a blade only to discover an inclusion when I was polishing it that makes it worthless as a custom piece.
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
ATS-34 is actually cheaper (in price) than 154cm or S30v.

a 1/8 X 1-1/2 x 36 bar of ATS-34 will run ya about $28 , while 154CM is about $37 and S30v about $60. ( last prices I recall on CPM-D2 was about $45 )
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that a bit, but none of those steels is what I'd call low-cost. How does it compare to 420J2, 420HC, 440A or even 440C? I've never bought the stuff in bar stock, so once again I don't really know. I was merely repeating what I've read elsewhere. I guess I should make a New Year's resolution not to do that anymore.
 
You know, I think the preponderance of ATS-34 steel in the high end knives listed on the web site you visited is just a coincidence. From what I've seen I don't think ATS34 is any more or less popular than any other steel. There is a huge variety of steels being used by makers as well as a wide range of preferences among collectors. If anything, due to the influence of the ABS and their goal of preserving old time forging techniques, I seem to see a bias against stainless steels among buyers. I have seen very high end knives made from all different types of steels, it depends upon many other factors, mostly how famous the maker is and how much demand there is. Well known makers can charge more.

ATS34 does have some qualities which make it quite suitable for collector knives, being stainless and easy to take a nice polish. As mentioned in other posts, some steels don't polish as nicely and are rust prone, but there are plenty of makers and customers who love carbon steel.

One thing I have noticed the past few years is that as cheap damascus from India has become common in low end knives, demand for high end damascus knives seems to have been slightly dampened in favor of pure carbon steel or blades with a tempered "hamon". This is sad to me, because the work a maker puts into a custom damascus knife has nothing to do whatsoever with the cheap India damascus. I personally think it a bit strange to see custom monosteel blades requiring just basic forging to shape and heat treating priced similar or more sometimes than damascus knives requiring much more labor to create. But, once again, there are so many other factors than simply the labor and quality of workmanship involved in the perceived value. A new knifemaker starting out can only charge minimum prices, well known makers with huge wait lists can pretty much charge whatever they want to.
 
The same size steel in 440C would be about $25.

Talking to some makers at Blade West , they had got some ATS-34 that was far from clean , I recently experienced some of it as well. This stuff had pop marks, inclusions and other nasty marks in it. It took quite a bit of metal removal to get the surface to a finish that was usable.

For an extra $24 , you can get the 1/8" x 1 1/2" x 36 bar of above steels precision ground from Admiral Steel. I am going to go that route on the next order and see if the steel is much more usable.
 
as mentioned just because some thing is desinated to be a certain alloy doe'st always mean clean & true to composition. custom makers section is full of tales of alloy variance. i feel for those guys since many hours may be wasted before defective metal is discovered. about as bad as installing an ivory handle that splits when polishing. the vast majority of damascus wo'nt outperform a standard alloy properly heattreated. most using knives to be used hard opt for nondamascus. remember one bad weld[most are'nt detectable] can ruin your whole day.
 
DennisStrickland said:
as mentioned just because some thing is desinated to be a certain alloy doe'st always mean clean & true to composition. custom makers section is full of tales of alloy variance. i feel for those guys since many hours may be wasted before defective metal is discovered. about as bad as installing an ivory handle that splits when polishing. the vast majority of damascus wo'nt outperform a standard alloy properly heattreated. most using knives to be used hard opt for nondamascus. remember one bad weld[most are'nt detectable] can ruin your whole day.
Click to expand...

Exactly the reason that I don't own a single pattern welded blade. It is probably just me, but I just haven't found a way to warm up to a blade that needs to be re-pickled after hard use. I can see the allure from a collector's point of view, but otherwise...
 
mete said:
I would not call them "super steels" leaving that title to steels like SGPS of Fallkniven.
Click to expand...
Crap. That reminds me I am still waiting for a package from the US containing two Fallkniven U2 folders... :mad:
Mikel
 
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