ATS34 V 154CM? Is there a really noticable difference?

The General

The General

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
Messages
3,625
Well?

I have a few blades in ATS-34 and one in 154CM.

I have been told 154CM is a purer steel with a better grain structure, also that ATS-34 was getting a bit 'rough' and overly impure.

Has anyone actually tried both back to back?

I am esp interested as BM are now swiching over and claim it is for 'supply' reasons and not for a performance increase.

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

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I'd be willing to be bet that 99% of us would never know the difference. These two are vitually identical. We're always carrying on about this steel or that is the best/ultimate. It would be very interesting to do a blind test on the popular cutlery steels and see who really likes what best. More marketing hype in steel selection than reality of what's THE best.
 
There is no 'best' steel, best knife, best car, best book, best person, best world. Choice of blade steel is a compromise between performance, stain-resistance, cost, flexibility, etc.

In the specific case of ATS34 and CM154, supply issues really are driving the shift away from ATS34 to CM154. There is little functional difference between these steels.

More than twenty years ago Bob Loveless popularized CM154 as blade steel. When Crucible decided not to make this material available in smaller quantities convenient to knifemakers, Hitachi started making ATS34, a near equivalent steel. Now Crucible Metals (CM) has started making CM154 again, and that material is being used by many custom knifemakers and some production companies.

Although there may be a Small difference between these steels, and the new CM-154 is supposed to be cleaner than ATS34, it is very unlikely that any user could tell the difference between optimally heat treated blades made from either material. What is much more important is how well either material is heat-treated. Unfortunately, this is somewhat invisible.

Paracelsus
 
The formulae for the two steels is almost identical. You would never notice a difference between the two so long as heat treating was the same. ATS-34 is from Japan and 154-CM is a U.S. product. Both approach exactly the same market. American makers have been gravitating toward 154-CM and I think the major reason is that it is an American product. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
In a word, yes.

I have ATS-34 and 154CM blades from Benchmade. The 154CM seems to be easier to sharpen (but only a little), takes what feels like a keener (toothier?) edge, and holds that edge just as long as ATS-34, if not longer. Yeah, on paper they should be practically identical in performance. In my use, I have to say that 154CM appears to be a better steel. ONLY by a little, but to me, it's there.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi
 
But Para, You're the best moderator. Oops, wait a minute, I forgot about VG ... and Cougar ... and Greg .... and on and on. LMAO


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It's not the pace of life that concerns me, It's the sudden stop at the end.
 
I, too, have ATS-34 and 154CM blades from Benchmade. I can't really tell a difference. You'd probably have to have two knives with identical blade shape and length, edge thickness and geometry to really get a good idea.
Some of the ATS-34 models being replaced by 154CM models may give us a chance to do that, but I doubt the difference will be very big.
The fact that production blades are heat treated en masse, and there may be inconsistencies, however small, from one batch to another would further serve to confuse the issue, IMO.
I don't think it's as simple as "this steel vs. that steel".

[This message has been edited by OwenM (edited 02-14-2001).]
 
General: Crucible Metalurgy Co. is located in Syracuse,NY and originally produced this steel for use in stainless roller bearings. They were not making it available in rolled sheets so it was not cost-effective for most knife companys
It is essentially the same formula as ATS-34 but now 154CM is said to have somewhat better grain structure.
I think both are going to perform about the same.
STEEL SNOBS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!
 
I have several of both.
The biggest difference seems to be who made the knife and what hardness they used, rather than which steel they used (ATS-34 vs 154CM).

Example: My SOCOM made of ATS-34 seems to hold an edge better than the "other" company's 154CM.

Example 2: My MINI SOCOM made of 154CM seems to hold a slightly better edge than the ATS-34 full size SOCOM... I dont really know what that says.

 
sorry this is a bit off topic, but in the past month i've drive through syracuse(gf had to go to court on a ticket) and right past the Crucible Metallurgy Co. plant. My heart started beating faster as i realized where i was...imagine, getting excited by driving by a place. it was just cool to see...and realize what it was.

sry....just got excited again realizing this is THE plant. please don't stone me(if you throw anything, try folded knives...just not Fury/United...maybe a nice custom?)

Ok, for my contribution...nothing I've seen or heard shows the 2 steels to be much different...just made in different places(as stated before).

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Sean
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dashunde:
I have several of both.
The biggest difference seems to be who made the knife and what hardness they used, rather than which steel they used (ATS-34 vs 154CM)
.....
Example 2: My MINI SOCOM made of 154CM seems to hold a slightly better edge than the ATS-34 full size SOCOM... I dont really know what that says.</font>
Click to expand...

Dang, here we go again, Dashunde! Didn't we go around on Gin-1 over on the BM forum?

Anyway, (and this is to the readers in general, not you Dashunde) I might believe that blade shape had a lot to do with it, if it weren't for the fact that ATS-34 consistently feels like ATS-34 to me, whether it is Benchmade (a 710, 722, and two Ascent series) or custom (Griffith, Jones, Simonich). And 154CM consistently feels different, and better, for the reasons I said above. I hate to say this about the customs I mention above, but the 154CM in my Benchmades feels toothier that the ATS-34, both immediately after sharpening and also after using them a bit.

When I say toothier, I mean if you run your finger lightly along the edge, it feels like it's gonna cut immediately, even with very light pressure. On the ATS-34, do the same thing, & it doesn't feel like it is going to cut. On the other hand, a smooth polished factory edge on my VG-10 Moran feels like it isn't cutting, but when you pull your finger away, it IS cut!
eek.gif
Yeah, that's stupid, but I've done it.

I don't know what the answer is. The question said, "Is there really a difference?" While the numbers say there shouldn't be a difference, in my experience with the two steels from the same manufacturer, I feel there is a difference. That's all I can say.

Maybe Benchmade is heat treating them the same way since their composition is so close to the same, but for some small reason the tiny differences in make-up result in 154CM coming out better?

Anyway, bottom line, just reporting my experience, my <u>opinion</u>, trying to answer the man's question.

edit - Just had another thought: maybe the sharpening method that I use (essentially freehand on the 203) just works better with 154CM? I mean, after all, I did grow up sharpening lower grade steels than either ATS or 154, and those habits are hard to break.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 02-15-2001).]
 
I doubt the fact that 154CM is cleaner than ATS-34 would be apprecable unless the blade were mirror finished, and probably not even then.

Although there was a member on chat the other night who found a number of inclusions in Timkin Latrobe VIM-VAR BG-42, so go figure. Walt
 
Tell you why I asked this.

I have/still owned a number of ATS-34 folders, mostly by Gerber and Benchmade.

Now the Gerbers in ATS-34 never seemed to hold an edge like I liked, and were a bugger to get just right!

That is why I turned to M2 et al.

I have found M2 holds an edge at least twice as long for me, if not more.

I tried my first BM ATS-34 blade, a 855-01 plain MP, and I have to say the edge dulled very quick without much use (factory edge) now I have not tried it since, I will just to be sure!

Well after picking up a BM 750 as a trade (as new, slight mark on scales) I noticed it was ATS-34, which after looking at the new Bm Cat, is now made in 154CM. Well... I have noticed my LCC holds a great edge, and still has a razor sharp edge days after some fair old use. Now I realise there is an issue with blade size and superiour factory edge (Microtech) but up till now I saw the ATS-34/154CM steels as an interesting yet way overated steel. Now I am not so sure. Point is I have not yet had a chance to give my 855 or other ATS-34 blades a second chance with my edge and not the factory edge. Secondly I do not own two blades with the same blade shape/size/style and was interested to see how it compaired back to back.

The MT LCC D/A has opened my eyes for edge holding in this class. I will give my 855 a work out and see how it holds up
wink.gif


Well, thanks for the input!

Steel Snobs Unite!!!

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
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