ATS34 vs 154CM Grain Structures...

Justin Moore

Justin Moore

Joined
Jan 26, 2000
Messages
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I am curious, what accounts of 154CM's finer grain structure? It seems to me in metals to are so similar to the point of being almost identical that the grain structures would be pretty much the same. Is there something in the manufacturing process that accounts for the 154CM's finer grain? Thanks guys...

JLM
 
They are the same steel, just different manufacturers. Grain structure differences are most likely the result of the heat treating. It would appear that the 154-CM you are referring to was heat treated better (probably cryogenically quenched) than the ATS-34.

Recently though, I have been getting ATS-34 that is not as clean as it used to be. Also, if the ATS-34 came from Admiral Steel what they supply is shear plate rather than hot rolled bars. That material has what looks like a rougher grain visible on the surface when it is polished. Crucible Steel also cuts 154-CM from plate, but they use water jet or something milder than shearing I guess and that graininess either isn't there or is invisible. I have seen no difference in how they perform, even when stressed. If you get the ATS-34 in hot rolled bars you won't see that.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 03-25-2000).]
 
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deleted my bad georgia joke...
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[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 03-25-2000).]
 
The grain comparison was done between two knives:

Gerber Covert in ATS-34
Benchmade 730 Ares in 154CM

Not sure what type of stock either of the manufacturers use. I am definitely happier with the 154CM blade thou. Seems like it cuts better.
 
I think that we may be confusing cleanliness and grain size here. 154 CM used to be dirty, but a recent post said that they now use argon-something-decarburization which results in a cleaner steel. It is not VIM/VAR.

Can someone help me out here? Would cleanliness of the steel have an effect on grain size? If you could further identify the process to which I foggily referred above, I would appreciate it. Walt
 
OK, I muddied my own water again. "Clean" steel means it has no voids or inclusions, and is not related to most discussions of grain size. Some recent ATS-34 I got was not clean, but the grain was the same as any other ATS-34 or 154CM for that matter. Recently the 154CM I got from Crucible Steel was very clean unlike some material I got about 10 years ago.

These steels have the same formulas. Hitachi (ATS-34) copied Crucible's 154-CM formula. The only difference may be how they are melted, rolled and/or cut, but they are the same steel. Unless they are heat treated differently, they will have the same grain size and will perform identically.

Having said that, you can not draw conclusions about steels based on two different knives with two different designs and edge configurations from two different manufacturers using two different heat treating processes. So if Benchmade used ATS-34 instead of 154-CM, you would not know the difference. What you are experiencing is a better knife, not a better steel.
 
I'm definitely no expert on this stuff. I think what your finding is that gerber hasn't got everything figured out quite right yet for their new line of knives with ATS34. They used to run all production with a lower quality alloy (can't remember what it was)They're now changing over and adding new models with ATS34, but chances are they're treating it very similarly to the other alloy they used to use, and the results are the differences you've noticed between your 2 knives. I have no idea if gerber is trying to work the bugs out or not. Their knives definitely aren't as high quality as benchmade or some of the other big names, but they're good users for the cost.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
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