Austenitizing and Tempering temperature relation to edge holding/toughness ?

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When it come to heat treat high alloy tool steel like A2, D2 or 3V. What is the different between austenitizing to achieved highest as-quenched hardness compare to the lower as-quenched one if both are tempering to the same HRC?

For example.

CPM-3V steel austenitizing at 2050F plated quenched and sub-zero will get us around 63HRC, double temper at 400F and the final hardness should be around 60HRC

VS

The same steel austenitizing at 1950F plate quenched and subzero will get around 61HRC, double temper at 300F should get it to the same 60HRC

All of this are just assumed numbers which might be vary to reality but you get the idea.

While both having the same HRC but what is the different in mechanical properties like toughness, apex strength, wear resistance etc. ?
 
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I know we don't use Crucibles formula for heat treating 3V, but from their datasheet:

The higher austenitizing temperatures can be used to obtain higher hardness, at a slight decrease in impact resistance. The lower austenitizing temperatures provide the best impact toughness.
 
Lower temps minimize grain growth, which is good for edge stability and toughness. I'm applications that need high wear resistance, higher hardness gives you that benefit, but you give up some toughness. I'm now using z-wear as it is tougher than 3v at higher hardnesses. If heat treated for toughness, z-wear can't match 3v in that department though. Z-wear at Rc62/63 is a pretty impressive performer.
 
The lower austenitizing temperatures provide the best impact toughness by leaving mushy structures and lath martensite. Great in a coining or cold forging tool, though not always ideal in a knife edge.

There are several kinds of "edge retention". There is edge retention related to abrasive wear resistance, which is largely a matter of the chemistry.

There is fine edge stability, which is largely a matter of the structures formed and the structures avoided and has less to do with chemistry.

There is also gross edge durability in rough use which is also largely a matter of the structures formed and the structures avoided, and related to, but not the same, as edge stability. Austenitizing temperatures and tempering temperatures play an important roll, as does the use and timing of cryo, various soak times, quench rate and material condition going into heat treat.

I use 3V quote a lot, and I use an optimized HT for it that is a little different for small knives verses large knives subjected to impact. This is because edge retention needs are different for different knives because they go dull through different mechanisms, depending on use. My 3V choppers end up at HRC 60.5 and my smaller knives end up at 62, but not because these hardnesses are the ideal hardness, but because that's where they ended up when the best structures were worked out for those applications. Or, to put it another way, the larger softer knives are not the same heat treat as the smaller harder knives but just tempered back. Quite the opposite, the smaller harder knives actually have a slightly higher tempering temperature. The harder knives are harder because there was more carbon put into solution in order to force plate martensite. This plate martensite gives a crisp stable edge that is more durable in many applications (lateral load on the edge), but less durable in others (impact on the edge). There is more than one way to put carbon into solution, not just aus temps, some involve multiple steps.

My point here being, edges deteriorate though various mechanisms, and the ideal heat treat for a particular knife needs to take into account how it will mostly likely go dull and be optimized for that use. The hardness is not the important thing to focus on, it just lands where it lands, the structures formed (and avoided) are what is important. At least in 3V. There is very little information on 3V in the literature, but you can look at other steels with some similarities such as M2, and see very easily the potential drawbacks to the higher aus temps, so be aware when you start playing up there your grain is still going to be fine (grain growth concerns are largely moot on 3V on your first heat), but your RA can be really bad, and addressing RA in the quench gives different results than addressing it in your tempers, meaning it's not just important that you address it, but also how (when) you address it, and sometimes it's best to just avoid it, particularly if you're not using full cryo.
 
Grain growth isn't a concern with 3v and I'm assuming similar steels? That's interesting to me. I'd like to read up on this. Do you have a reference? (I accept you are correct on this, I'm not challenging you.)
 
Grain growth isn't a concern with 3v and I'm assuming similar steels? That's interesting to me. I'd like to read up on this. Do you have a reference? (I accept you are correct on this, I'm not challenging you.)

The primary carbides in 3V are mostly vanadium. These pin the grains and are not significantly reduced in the first heat until temperatures well above a normal range. This is not true on simple steels that are commonly forged, but is pretty typical on steels like 3V, D2 and the high speed steels. Pretty much any metallurgy text showing grain size as it relates to temperatures will show this, but the one I use is Tool Steels, 5th edition. I expect you could exceed 2100 on 3V (there would be terrible RA and possibly other issues) but I expect your grain would still be fine.
 
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