Authentic Marble's 1930's hunter...or not?

K

kirch

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Dec 19, 1999
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I just got the most recent issue of the A.G. Russell catalog and something in there caught my attention. They are offering a pair of Marble's Depression Hunters for $165. The following description was given:

"In a garage at Marble's factory, employees found a stack of oil soaked boxes containing over 500 of the 'Depression' blades, heat-treated, finish ground and basically ready to put handles on. They have used handle material from their old stock to make the knives exactly as when production was stopped in 1936. In the 1930's, these knives were sold without sheaths, so they are now being offered two to a box, one of each handle shape and no sheath. The blades of 1095 were made in 1935-36, the handle material has been in storage since that same time period, even the red brass pins are proper. These are not modern replicas, they are genuine 1930's knives.{my italics} Only the labor of shaping the handles and pinning them on the blades, and cleaning and sharpening the blades, is current. Made in the U.S.A."

"These very thin 4-1/2" flat ground blades have been frozen (unintentional) each year for the past 65 years and should have completed their martensite transformation even better than if heat treated today and cryogenic quenched."

So. Are these, in fact, "genuine 1930's knives" or not?

I guess my feeling is that any knife is greater than the sum of its parts. Say I have two identical knives from 1925. One has a broken blade and one is missing a bolster. If I take them apart and combine the good pieces, do I have a "genuine 1920's knife"? I think the person I sell that knife to under that description might be rather upset if he found out he paid a "genuine" price for a rehab.

I know that Mr. Russell himself takes an active role in these forums, so I'd be very interested to here what he has to say on this issue as well. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on a very respected name in the knife world, but I am curious as to who's idea it was to try and pass these off as "genuine".
 
I'm reminded of the old saw that goes something like,

This is the axe my grandpa made, my dad replaced the head and I replaced the haft.
:D

Under strictest interpretation, no. These probably aren't 1925 knives, they're 2001 knives made from parts made in 1925.

However... There is no subterfuge intended by either Marbles or Mr. Russell and the exact circumstances of these knives is very well described so I don't see anything wrong with how the ad copy reads.

I would hope however, that there is some marking or other distinction to ensure that the "new" 1925 knives can never be mistaken for the "old" 1925 knives, if for no other reason than to prevent unscrupulous individuals from mis-representing these "new" knives on the secondary market at a later date.

Whether you think it's an "old" or "new" knife, it's still pretty cool!
:D
 
Kirch:

The knives are genuine as discribed, they are Marble's knives made by Marble's The blades in the 1930s and the handles (of wood cut to size in the 1930s and shaped recently. The materials are original, only the handle shaping and blade cleanup are current.

Where is the copy less than complete? What have we tried to hide? I have 40 years of writing strightforward copy, have I somehow failed here? I do fail once in a while. If you mean did we try to sell them as genuine antiques, the answer is no. We tried to present an opportunity to buy a unique mix of old and new at fair prices.

In a lifetime of collecting knives I have never seen an original of one of these knives. I doubt that a thousand of them were sold in the 1930s and I am sure that most, if not all, were used up. We have about four dozen sets left and I very much appreciate your bringing them to the attention of the readers here.

For Ken: I think that the current blades are etched while the originals were stamped. Not sure, you understand but I think so.

Great kitchen knives by the way.

A. G.
 
Thank you for your reply, Mr. Russell.

I'm not saying the copy was deceptive in any way. In fact, I think you went out of your way to give the full story of these knives, and I appreciate that. I guess my greatest concern is for what happens after the sale. Here we have a respected authority in the knife industry touting these as 'genuine' 1930's knives. It's not too great a stretch to think of someone buying a few pairs and reselling them as mint-condition knives made in the 30's. The unscrupulous could even quote no less an authority than A.G. Russell, to help verify the knives' authenticity.

With all the talk over on Bernard Levine's forum about fakes, trickery and deception, I guess I've got my eyes open larger than usual to anything that might push the credibility line a bit.

No harm, no foul. Just looking for some input.
 
Kirch,

That possibility would be pretty much eliminated by having the maker's marks etched in rather than stamped.

;)
 
If indeed the blades are etched instead of stamped. Mr. Russell seems a lil unsure.

I think that the current blades are etched while the originals were stamped.
Click to expand...

Is there any way to find out for sure Mr. Russell?

I agree with kirch, I think if there is not a definate mark to differentiate the knives from actual antique knives it would probably hurt the long term collectability of the knives, and the possibilty of tom foolery is real.

BTW It is a great chance to buy a unique mix of old and new at fair prices.
:)
 
Etch the blades with:

"All parts from the 1930's, assembled in 2001"

That'll kill the problem of unscrupulous people trying to take Marble's and A.G.'s efforts and ruining them.
 
New Information.

blades marked in late 1930s or 1940 or early 1941. between 6,000 and 8,000 made, the vast majority with handles of stright grained walnut. very few with the same woods used here. As I said I had never seen one, Mike Stewart (no longer with Marble's) says that in the four years he was there he saw less than two dozen, most worn out. The blades were not reworked, they were mirror polished when originally done and all that was necessary was to shape the handle and pin it in place. I am sure that they were sharpened now rather than when originally made.

all the best,

A. G.
 
They're pretty cool.

When I read the catalog I felt I knew exactly what I was getting. Old knives from the 30's with old handle material added on but cleaned up blades. You can see some very mild pitting on one of my knives. They look great, are very thinly ground and are just a piece of Americana.

I feel A.G. was right on the mark with his description. Why stamp the blades with anything, especially when the catalog documents how the knives were made? They have the Marble stamping on them. They're not ruggedly made or anything but I can picture my grandpa using one.

I think AG is one of the most forthright men in this business. I know I wouldn't be fooled if someone told me they were from the 30's. I am saving the catalog and will put it in the box.

Thanks for all you do AG!
 
Thank you for the additional information, Mr. Russell.

I think some might be missing my point here. I'm not implicating A.G. Russell (or Marbles for that matter) in any kind of fraudulent activity. It's very clear in the catalog copy the true story behind these knives.

Perhaps the question I should ask is, Should a manufacturer that creates a knife from old parts (or a company selling those knives to the retail public) have any responsibility to help prevent possible fraudulent marketing of those knives by less-than-honest sellers in the future? Sure, it could be argued that the handle material is different from the originals, but it's not like coming across genuine knives with undocumented handle material is that uncommon. Knife manufacturers in those days, to the best of my knowledge, sometimes had to change handle materials due to availability. This doesn't make those knive any less genuine.

It just seems to me that something could be done (probably by Marbles) to further differentiate these knives from the real McCoy. Then there would be no question as to what's original and what's not.
 
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