Auto Knife in Florida - Legal?

[southbeachlaw]

This is an update to the thread: Member emailed me asking about an auto knife which is 4" or less. Is this legal? The answer is, likely not Ffor 2 reasons. First, remember, Fla. law says that a weapon specifically for our purposes includes a knife unless it is a "common" pocket knife. To us knife enthusiasts, what may be common to us isn't necessarily common to the general population. What constitutes a common pocket knife will usually be up to a jury. In some cases a judge can make a determination of that as a matter of law (there is no question of fact for a jury to decide). This may be true in simple cases (they confiscate your folder which is 4 inches or less and you were carrying it closed in your pocket). There is caselaw out there that specifically says that in this situation there is not violation. However, the law is not black and white. Sometimes a judge will not be willing to make such a determination and will send the case to a jury. Then what should be a simple case in your favor all of a sudden goes to a jury and that jury has to decide if your knife is a "common" pocket knife or not. Scary. Especially since alot of people are scared of knives (this depends I guess in what part of the state you are in - rural or city).

Your Spyderco Delica may be intimidating enough looking that a stupid judge may not realize it falls within the exception of a weapon and send it off for a jury to consider.

The second reason, is that the auto knife has been interpreted by at least one appellate court to be a "self-propelled" knife and thus illegal. I don't agree with the court's interprestation of this law as I think it directly goes against the "self-propelled" knife definition in Florida, but this is the state of the law.

Going back to the original question however regarding the possession of an auto knife in Florida. Florida statute 790.0225 defines a self propelled knife as any knife in which the blade is physically separated from the device. Obviously this is not what an auto knife typically does. However, the appellate courts read this statute to include switchblades and other auto knives. In Broward in 2000 a judge was faced with the decision as to whether or not a switchblade was a self-propelled knife under the statute and she stated that she couldn't find that it was because the statute as written was vague. The appellate court stated it was not vague and that a switchblade was a self-propelled knife regardless of whether the blade disattaches from the handle when propelled. Scary. After doing this research, I am wondering if my Kershaw AOs that I often carry are legal in Fla. Seems the line is a fine one. Have to rethink about carrying them now. Think I will just stick to my mini griptilian as much as possible. That stinks because I like to change my EDC from time to time.

Again, the law is not clear. In a subseqent 2002 case, a person was found with a switchblade in a center console of a car. Again, this is Broward case. They didn't charge him with illegal possession of a self-propelled knife, but rather carrying a concealed weapon. The court found that it was not concealed because it was in a center console and therefore the exception to carrying a concealed weapon applied. Since he was not charged with carrying a self-propelled knife, the law was not tested. I don't know if the conclusion would have been the same. Perhaps the prosecutor in this case just didn't know to charge that so this case does not mean that the prohibition of carrying a self-propelled knife was abolished.

_____________________

I've included for anyone that is interested a copy of the Broward case and statute regarding self-propelled knives in the next thread as I'm out of room here.

Questions? Please feel free to write me from SealMyRecord.Com

Nick

 

[tom19176]

Interesting cases. I know that switchblades are sold openly in Florida. Any idea how any local ADA's would view a simple possession charge of a switchblade? As I am sure you know, if the ADAs won't write them up as a "banned" item then it trickles down to the LEO level not to bring in arrest for them....The Ballistic knife was clearly the item being banned by the written law.

 

[southbeachlaw]

Under the law if you possessed an auto knife you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon and with violation of the auto statute. Just because a state attorney doesn't charge it doesn't mean it isn't against the law. Many times a state attorney won't charge something if he isn't aware of the law. Many are new prosecutors and don't know the existence of it. LEOs and state attorney's don't work hand in hand as you would think. They actually work pretty independently. Many times a cop will arrest someone for something and the state attorney will override his decision and not file the charge. Also, the reverse, many times a cop will arrest for some kind of conduct and the state attorney will add charges not charged by the police.

It is interesting that you see autos at knife and gun shows. Under state law they could charge the person selling them with possession of a self-propelled knife. Guess police just look the other way or don't know the law. Maybe most knife owners are pretty responsible and these issues don't come up enough to be familiar to the authorities?

Nick.

 

[tom19176]

Nick,

I am a former NYC LEO and I am not too familar with the Flordia Law, but i did read all you wrote.I agree with the different paths taken by both the law enforcement community and the DA's office, but the DA wins at the end if they refuse to press the charges and or reduce them. The Appellate decision ( which clearly seems grossly wrong) can be used by a DA who believes that the sale and or possession of switchblades are illegal in Fl. The remainder of the sane DA's and ADAs out there can still choose to enforce the written law which clearly excludes a knife that after automatically open still has the blade attached to the handle of the knife. The DA's office often changes their view of things which can lead the public to argue the "vague" wording of the law. I was professional trained to interpert the law enough to enforce it and I clearly see that this only was meant to ban a knife that propells the blade towards a target and the blade disengages from the handle. I actually would not have chosen to contest the law on a vagueness arguement, as it clearly excludes switchblades and even states that other weapons that propell a spear are not banned. Years ago in NYC, if someone entered a store with a shopping bag lined with tin foil and was caught shop lifting, then you could charge them with the more serious crime of possession of buglar tools simply for using a altered shopping bag to overcome the store's security system. This was considered a good arrest back then and the local Brooklyn and Mahattan ADAs actually strongly encouraged this charge. Today that feeling has changed, and there are few if any ADAs who will still write that up. The Florida weapons law, seemed to be influenced by a author who went to great pains to clearly describe the method by which the Ballistic knife works and to then state that other knives and spear guns were not to be banned by this law.....

I think you and I see it the same way, but I hope for the sake of the honest knife loving public that someone fairly quickly challenges the above decision.

 

[southbeachlaw]

Tom,

Thanks for writing and thanks for the other link. We are on the same page. Absent argument against the state attorney, it is no wonder as to why the appellate court heard only a one sided argument and thus ruled the way they did. The statute seems pretty clear to me (and you) and it clearly does not outlaw auto knives. The unfortunate part is that this is the only appellate decision on this issue and thus it is controlling law in Florida. The court has interpreted the self-propelled knife statute to include switchblades (auto knives). Until another equally authoratative jurisdiction (another appellate circuit) rules differently (thus creating a conflict in the interpretation of the law so as to require the Fla. Supreme court to rule on this issue) this is the law of the land in Florida for auto knives. Have to wait and see if another appellate court rules differently. Until then, the trial courts are legally bound by this stupid decision or risk being overruled. No judge likes to be overruled by a higher court.

Take Care,
Nick

 

[CorpsmanUP!]

I was wondering about a fixed blade hunting knife- specifically wearing it on your belt. Can you wear it hunting? -or work if you work in a rural area, or not at all? Thanks
Doc

 

[j.bowie]

This is an update to the thread: Member emailed me asking about an auto knife which is 4" or less. Is this legal? The answer is, likely not Ffor 2 reasons. First, remember, Fla. law says that a weapon specifically for our purposes includes a knife unless it is a "common" pocket knife. To us knife enthusiasts, what may be common to us isn't necessarily common to the general population. What constitutes a common pocket knife will usually be up to a jury. In some cases a judge can make a determination of that as a matter of law (there is no question of fact for a jury to decide). This may be true in simple cases (they confiscate your folder which is 4 inches or less and you were carrying it closed in your pocket). There is caselaw out there that specifically says that in this situation there is not violation. However, the law is not black and white. Sometimes a judge will not be willing to make such a determination and will send the case to a jury. Then what should be a simple case in your favor all of a sudden goes to a jury and that jury has to decide if your knife is a "common" pocket knife or not. Scary. Especially since alot of people are scared of knives (this depends I guess in what part of the state you are in - rural or city).

Your Spyderco Delica may be intimidating enough looking that a stupid judge may not realize it falls within the exception of a weapon and send it off for a jury to consider.

The second reason, is that the auto knife has been interpreted by at least one appellate court to be a "self-propelled" knife and thus illegal. I don't agree with the court's interprestation of this law as I think it directly goes against the "self-propelled" knife definition in Florida, but this is the state of the law.

Going back to the original question however regarding the possession of an auto knife in Florida. Florida statute 790.0225 defines a self propelled knife as any knife in which the blade is physically separated from the device. Obviously this is not what an auto knife typically does. However, the appellate courts read this statute to include switchblades and other auto knives. In Broward in 2000 a judge was faced with the decision as to whether or not a switchblade was a self-propelled knife under the statute and she stated that she couldn't find that it was because the statute as written was vague. The appellate court stated it was not vague and that a switchblade was a self-propelled knife regardless of whether the blade disattaches from the handle when propelled. Scary. After doing this research, I am wondering if my Kershaw AOs that I often carry are legal in Fla. Seems the line is a fine one. Have to rethink about carrying them now. Think I will just stick to my mini griptilian as much as possible. That stinks because I like to change my EDC from time to time.

Again, the law is not clear. In a subseqent 2002 case, a person was found with a switchblade in a center console of a car. Again, this is Broward case. They didn't charge him with illegal possession of a self-propelled knife, but rather carrying a concealed weapon. The court found that it was not concealed because it was in a center console and therefore the exception to carrying a concealed weapon applied. Since he was not charged with carrying a self-propelled knife, the law was not tested. I don't know if the conclusion would have been the same. Perhaps the prosecutor in this case just didn't know to charge that so this case does not mean that the prohibition of carrying a self-propelled knife was abolished.

_____________________

I've included for anyone that is interested a copy of the Broward case and statute regarding self-propelled knives in the next thread as I'm out of room here.

Questions? Please feel free to write me from SealMyRecord.Com

Nick

A recent law change was made by governor jeb bush made it legal to posess and carry a switch blade knife in florida.

 

[j.bowie]

I was wondering about a fixed blade hunting knife- specifically wearing it on your belt. Can you wear it hunting? -or work if you work in a rural area, or not at all? Thanks
Doc

Yes, you can wear it while hunting in an approved designated hunting area. But not in public areas where people gather.