Auto's and Military, again

[drstevechan]

Hi everyone. New user here and I just have to say that this forum is great. Lot's of good info here. Sorry if the answer to my Q is posted somewhere, but I've been trying to look for the answer myself for quite awhile.

I'm in the military, can I legally carry an auto out in town? I'm not reporting to basic training, I have both arms and hands, etc. I found this

Sec. 1244. Exceptions
Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to -
(3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting in the performance of his duty

If you are in the military or a copper, are technically ever off duty? I can probably get away with it if I'm driving from/to work, but what if I'm at the mall or out in the bars?

Thanks in advance

 

[fdd19]

yeah your allowed dont worry bout it just have some indication that your in the military present (cap with rank+name, BDU etc)

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i dont know of any cop that would hassle you, especially if you are active and have id. i certainly wouldnt.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

The courts (Military or Civilian) might not consider barhopping to be "in the performance of your duties." Also consider that most bouncers and many cops have a poor grasp of the law, and can also be jerks.

Are you restricted to a specific blade length when on base?

 

[jtb49er2000]

When I was in the military there were pretty strict rules about carrying certain items whether on base or not. As far as the civilian side goes, just because you have the military ID, it doesn't mean that you're above the law. I'd say that you need to look into the local laws concerning knife and auto carry.

 

[fdd19]

Also consider that most bouncers and many cops have a poor grasp of the law, and can also be jerks.

try saying that to the guy above your post...

 

[severtecher]

I think part of the "poor grasp" comes from the fact that situations rarely, if ever, come up regarding auto knives. I work at an Air Force facility and asked at the military police office if autos were allowed. Several persons got involved and, without looking up the regulations, claimed the local municipal knife laws would apply on the government property. Same sort of ignorance in the local law enforcement I have noticed. Not a big concern .

 

[MORIMOTOM]

The courts (Military or Civilian) might not consider barhopping to be "in the performance of your duties." Also consider that most bouncers and many cops have a poor grasp of the law, and can also be jerks.

Are you restricted to a specific blade length when on base?

huh, interesting. bouncers are not required to know legalities of weapon carry, they simply enforce business policy. they may have their own guidelines based on use of force and such, but beyond that why should they be expected to know laws any better than anyone else? they can only make a citizen's arrest like any other civilian.

as for officers being ignorant or jerks, like in any walk of life, there are competent and incompetent, nice and jerks.

but most? c'mon! if most cops have a poor grasp of the law, then your suggesting that most of us dont know what we are doing and making illegal arrests. completely unfair and unrealistic statements.

 

[fdd19]

huh, interesting. bouncers are not required to know legalities of weapon carry, they simply enforce business policy. they may have their own guidelines based on use of force and such, but beyond that why should they be expected to know laws any better than anyone else? they can only make a citizen's arrest like any other civilian.

as for officers being ignorant or jerks, like in any walk of life, there are competent and incompetent, nice and jerks.

but most? c'mon! if most cops have a poor grasp of the law, then your suggesting that most of us dont know what we are doing and making illegal arrests. completely unfair and unrealistic statements.

i warned him, hope you saw my post lol

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I think part of the "poor grasp" comes from the fact that situations rarely, if ever, come up regarding auto knives. I work at an Air Force facility and asked at the military police office if autos were allowed. Several persons got involved and, without looking up the regulations, claimed the local municipal knife laws would apply on the government property. Same sort of ignorance in the local law enforcement I have noticed. Not a big concern .

municipal laws should have little bearing on federal land. even though with in a municipality, while on a military base, military personnel handle criminal investigation unless deferred to local police or feds, right?

if your branch, division, company, whatever, allows autos then it should be written in some form of policy, directive, etc.

on duty generally means 'in the performance of official duty'. cops and active duty military in a sense are never 'off duty', but when off the clock different rules usually apply.

again, i probably wouldnt hassle you, unless the auto had been used illegally, but may suggest that you dont carry it when off the clock, so to speak.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i warned him, hope you saw my post lol

i did see yours as well. he opened a whole can of worms, didnt he?

i try not to make generalities about any group of people, and when someone else makes one about my group of peers, it gets under my skin a little.

its not like he SAID something without thinking or using a mental editing process. he TYPED it and could have used a little more discretion.

 

[fdd19]

First Responders are allowed to have assisted openers yeah? (ive got a kershaw ken onion tac blur) would i get in trouble for carrying it?
yup i try to account for various variable before choosing a course to take etc (Im quite good at it, lol years of practice!)
Its a combo of look before you leap, worst case scenario, and murphy's law
forget worms,he practically through chum in the water! lol

 

[MORIMOTOM]

in ca assisted openers are not restricted, yet. i believe the laws may catch up to the industry. there is also no exemption in the penal code for first responders. department policy must allow autos and may supercede the penal code in a way. in the pc there is a section that states more or less that equipment used in the performance of official duty is exempt, but does not specifically list autos, so is a bit ambiguous in this regard.

 

[fdd19]

best thing to have taken, that first responder class and that emt class (both of which i Aced thankyou very much)

 

[MORIMOTOM]

are you a paramedic? or looking to be a fire fighter?

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

huh, interesting. bouncers are not required to know legalities of weapon carry, they simply enforce business policy. they may have their own guidelines based on use of force and such, but beyond that why should they be expected to know laws any better than anyone else? they can only make a citizen's arrest like any other civilian.

as for officers being ignorant or jerks, like in any walk of life, there are competent and incompetent, nice and jerks.

but most? c'mon! if most cops have a poor grasp of the law, then your suggesting that most of us dont know what we are doing and making illegal arrests. completely unfair and unrealistic statements.

1.) Private security, including bouncers certified as security, have powers of arrest in some jurisdictions. Even where they do not, they can generally detain someone for police. Many clubs "wand" patrons, and anyone carrying a concealed weapon is arrested / detained for arrest.

2.) I said MANY policemen, NOT "most."

3.) Many policemen are, indeed, ignorant of the specifics of weapon possession law, particularly as applied to various types of knives. Hence, a steak knife becomes a "dirk," a loose lockblade becomes a "gravity knife," and a single-edged folder with a hilt or swing-guard becomes a "dagger." Many policemen consider a mere penknife to be a "concealed weapon." Many such arrests are either dismissed in court or overturned upon appeal.

4.) A wrongful arrest, made "in good faith" through a "reasonable expectation" that the alleged weapon was prohibited is NOT illegal. The Law is very complex, and a policeman is not expected to know more than the basics. If he wants to call your "assisted opener" a "switchblade" and arrest you for it, he's probably acting in good faith and would not be reprimanded -- even though the charge would be dismissed. Still, you gotta spend the night in a holding cell and pay for an attorney . . . .

BTW, who's the gal in your avatar?

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Congratulations on getting high scores on the tests for your first aid classes. I think morimotom knows I don't have a problem with the police -- this was simply a misunderstanding. I should've been more clear.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

1.) Private security, including bouncers certified as security, have powers of arrest in some jurisdictions. Even where they do not, they can generally detain someone for police. Many clubs "wand" patrons, and anyone carrying a concealed weapon is arrested / detained for arrest.

2.) I said MANY policemen, NOT "most."

3.) Many policemen are, indeed, ignorant of the specifics of weapon possession law, particularly as applied to various types of knives. Hence, a steak knife becomes a "dirk," a loose lockblade becomes a "gravity knife," and a single-edged folder with a hilt or swing-guard becomes a "dagger." Many policemen consider a mere penknife to be a "concealed weapon." Many such arrests are either dismissed in court or overturned upon appeal.

4.) A wrongful arrest, made "in good faith" through a "reasonable expectation" that the alleged weapon was prohibited is NOT illegal. The Law is very complex, and a policeman is not expected to know more than the basics. If he wants to call your "assisted opener" a "switchblade" and arrest you for it, he's probably acting in good faith and would not be reprimanded -- even though the charge would be dismissed. Still, you gotta spend the night in a holding cell and pay for an attorney . . . .

BTW, who's the gal in your avatar?

any bouncer employed as security and covered under pc (650 i believe) is not a bouncer, although may be have job duties as such. they can detain for arrest by police like any other citizen, powers of arrest are no greater.
although they may have cuffs, and even a sidearm, it is still a citizens arrest.

a steak knife can indeed be a dirk/dagger, under the right circumstances. because it was not made as a weapon, the intent of the carrier is important. what is known as the totality of the circumstances. what kind of person walks around with a steak knife in his pocket? just arrested a gangster for this last week.

there are some officers, i think even many is a strong term given the total number of cops in the country, are not well versed in weapon laws. while there may be some creativity in application of laws, but it is the carriers responsibility to know the laws and how thier knife may or may not be illegal.

yes, an arrest made in good faith but incorrect is not illegal, and a reprimand is not appropriate. a pen knife, if it looks like a pen, is specifically identified in the ca penal code, so no way around that one.

i dont think you meant to be insulting or were looking for a fight in any way, i just disagreed with your choice of phrase. i obviously know a lot of cops from different agencies in different states, i can honestly say the percentage of incompetence is far less than i have seen in other fields, but still exists.

and the avatar, not even sure its a female.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

a steak knife can indeed be a dirk/dagger, under the right circumstances. because it was not made as a weapon, the intent of the carrier is important. what is known as the totality of the circumstances. what kind of person walks around with a steak knife in his pocket? just arrested a gangster for this last week. . . .a pen knife, if it looks like a pen, is specifically identified in the ca penal code, so no way around that one.

The Law is very different from state to state. Recently in VA, a CONVICTED FELON who'd just bopped someone over the head with a 2X4, was found to have a steak knife in his pocket, and was arrested for carrying a concealed "dirk." The appellate court overturned the weapon charge, since it was not used as a weapon, and "it would strain" the definition of "like weapon to a dirk" to classify a common steak knife as such (I have the 5 page printout of the court's decision in my vehicle, lest my serrated Culloden ever comes into question). In CA, any fixed blade is unlawful to carry concealed.

As for the "pen knife," I was simply referring to a small folding knife rather than a disguised blade.

 

[MontanaVet]

When I was in the military I was told many military bases lease their land. I think they used the term "Concurrent Jurisdiction" as far as enforcing local and state laws. Many times in the case of federally owned land the laws were more strict than local and state laws. Many things became a felony with the big "F" on federal land where they were misdemeanor on the other. One example is leaving food at a campsite in a national park. A lady was charged with a felony for endangering bears, even though she left the area for home. MV out!

Concurrent jurisdiction exists where two or more courts from different systems simultaneously have jurisdiction over a specific case. This situation leads to forum shopping, as parties will try to have their lawsuit heard in the court that they perceive will be most favorable to them.

In the United States, concurrent jurisdiction exists to the extent that the Constitution of the United States permits U.S. federal courts to hear actions that can also be heard by U.S. state courts. For example, where a party from Alabama sues a party from Florida for a breach of contract, the Alabama party can sue in either the federal court located in Florida (under its diversity jurisdiction) or in the state court located in Florida (under its personal jurisdiction over the defendant).

Concurrent jurisdiction in the United States can also exist between different levels of state courts, and between courts and other government agencies with judicial powers. Different countries can also share concurrent jurisdiction over a case, where different countries have authority over the parties or events giving rise to the cause of action.

Sections 1331-32 give federal courts concurrent jurisdiction with the state courts over federal question and diversity cases