Bad Threads - Need Some Moderation

B

BigRott

Joined
Jan 6, 2000
Messages
71
Hello,

I do not like seeing "promotional" postings from knife dealers in the blade discussion forum. The blade discussion forum is not the place for free advertising. Sure, it's stuff that will interest those who are looking for a place to shop, but if every dealer who sees the BF add in the knife mags decides to post here whenever they have a sale, free giveaway, or a new web page, the blade discussion forum will become hopelessly cluttered wth ads and useless.

The moderators either have to move these threads to an appropriate forum or create a new one. The moderators should not encourage these advertising posts by replying to them in the blade discussion forum.

Later,

MBS



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Nevermind the dog...beware of owner!
 
Hi Big,
I dont think that is so terrible. What you are talking about is still in the realm of information. Knife readers like to hear when a new product is out and like to know of the Websites out there. Knifemakers will also use the site to see if there is interest in something that they are thinking about making. Again, this is still information for the knifemaker to know his market and for the knife buying consumer to know what might yet come out for him to buy.


BUT YOU BRING OUT A REALLY GOOD POINT because there is what is information and what becomes odvious overt, advertising. For a maker to jump on every thread where someone mentions wanting a knife to push their own products should not be tolerated. To my knowledge Spark does not tolerate this on the forums and he will correct a maker for using the site to advertise his products.

If you happen to see this behavior becoming odvious by any one maker I would email Spark. Also it is not just limited to the General Forum but it has occured in other forums as well.

I also think that this hurts a maker in the end. If the people talk about a maker's products then the readers will listen. But, when a maker over pushes his own stuff it is a turn off to the consumer.

It goes back to the what the Bible says, "There is a time and place for everything."
 
Until a few days ago there wasn't really an appropriate place for announcements, but there is now! I'm planning to check the "What's New" forum frequently.


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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
This is a delicate subject. We have to be careful not to push all of the makers and distributors away. Yes, an obvious ad should be placed in the proper area. What is the difference when an end user posts information about a knife "give-away", new web site, or great deal now availible?

We now have over 5,000 members and most likely over 10,000 before the end of the year. Bladeforums is changing the knife industry. A dealer or maker doesn't dare produce something that is low quality or a bad deal. Quickly over 5,000 "buyers" will hear about it and a reputation will be affected.

Having access to this many people in the knife business means that an end user/buyer can find the best knife and best deal availible. I'm an end user and now won't make a new purchase without consulting this forum. On the other hand, we also have a "What's New" forum. So this topic can be a thin line. Everything in moderation, including moderation.
 
I think I should address this issue head on and make a new rule.

I could use your help.

We have all seen the "FREE giveaway knife!" threads and these are promotional but they are also giving our members a free knife.

What I am thinking is that we should not allow threads like that to force a member to leave our site to enter the contest. This is obviously a cheap way to advertise on our most popular board.

If a memeber asks a direct question then I see no problem with a dealer answering it.

Example,
  • Member: Who has X-Knife in stock?
  • Dealer: We do and you can click here to see it.

The problem with the above is other dealers might come in and say, "we have it too", "I got one left!", "I have it for $XX.XX" and so on.

So I guess the best thing to do is to remove all promtional posts from this forum.

If you want to announce a new site, do so in the dealer area.

If you want to give away a free knife, do so in the dealer area.

Yes we need to police this a little better.

Give me your ideas.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 02-19-2000).]
 
I noticed a couple of threads started by one dealer about upcoming additions/improvements to their web page, one of which solicits "what do you want to see there?" responses. Seems like advertising to me, but as a "fellow pusher" I lack objectivity here.

And I've posted a few "pretty pictures" of production knives myself, here and there. Some of the forum users are happy to see the images, and if anyone who likes the images comes my way, I don't complain.

Perhaps there should be another "slot" for participating dealers to post "what's new" bulletins?



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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
James; when Mike posts this:

So I guess the best thing to do is to remove all promtional posts from this forum.

If you want to announce a new site, do so in the dealer area.
Click to expand...

I don't thinks a disinterested observer to determine that the sort of post you describe that announces a new website coming soon should be in the dealer's area. Walt
 
Mike, Spark, Please move my two most current posts to the dealer area. I didn't mean to cause such a fuss. Sheesh ! I feel like everyone is getting a little touchy here anymore. I don't even post that much. No offense was intended, I just wanted the formites to know about the giveaways and do a little research into their wants and needs, I'd rather give these things out to the formites, who I know are genuine knife-a-holics.

Apologies,

John


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First rule when dealing with the Devil... DON'T, but then again.. maybe he's got that Sebenza, etc. i've been looking for ?
 
In the past when this topic has come up it seemed reasonable to allow dealers, makers, etc. to post informative posts, answer questions and that sort of thing, just as anyone else would. They can add a link to their own website in a signature line, as James Mattis does with his www.chaicutlery.com . Mr. Mattis advertises in this manner, but he never JUST advertises. His contributions to the Forums are frequent and appreciated by all.

Cumberland Knives, on the other hand, admits that he doesn't post very much. Maybe he should post more often, share a bit of his expertise on a regular basis. Then it wouldn't seem (rightly or wrongly) like he's abusing the forum soley for his personal gain.

So my well-intentioned advice to Cumberland Knives, from the perspective of a regular guy who comes here often and who doesn't mind learning of your existence yet doesn't want to see the general forum cluttered with advertisements, is to answer questions and advice frequently, and perhaps start new threads on interesting topics. And put your link in a signature file. Every time you contribute something you'll get a bit of free advertising.

Now, as soon as I finish this message I'm going to go visit the Cumberland Knives website, just to show there are no hard feelings, and maybe figure out how to get one of those free knives.
smile.gif


David Rock

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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 02-19-2000).]
 
well, you won't have any luck today, and niether have I. I woke up this morning to find the whole site down. and these posts on top of that, a new site to build, email down, etc. Have a nice day.

John

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First rule when dealing with the Devil... DON'T, but then again.. maybe he's got that Sebenza, etc. i've been looking for ?
 
I asked this question on another thread, but if the Cumberland Knives post got moved, than shouldn't the post by GeneL74 have been moved as well?

No offense GeneL74, I'm just curious as to why one is different from the other. And if there is a difference, it would be helpful to understand exactly why.

clip
 
Establishing policy falls to me. And the thoughts brought out in this thread should be explored and reviewed.

In as such I will make a policy concerning such posts soon.

I do agree that dealers who post in here can simply modify there sig line to reflect that they are a dealer and a link in the sig line should be sufficient.

I did the same thing when I had my blow out sale. When the sale was over I removed the line from my signature pointing to my sale.

Lines that I will not allow in a sig line are those which advertise that they will beat other dealers prices and the like.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
 
Moderation is fine..but the main discussion forum should not be snipped up to much. There needs to be a little more freedom, although, as was pointed out, dealers and makers should be especially careful how they conduct themselves so as to not draw disgruntled attention toward themselves.

"Name A Knife" and "Name A Company" contests which only require that someone to post on BladeForums to enter should always be allowed, hands down.

Contests such as the one brought to our attention by Cumberland Knives are a different issue. That is because one must leave BladeForums and enter the given dealer's website to participate in the giveaway/contest.

Personally, I wasn't in the least offended by the giveaway thread by Cumberland Knives.

The thread regarding the new website, and what it should entail, is a great thread! It was only started because CK wanted to get an idea of what is "hot" at the moment. It also gives the consumers (us
smile.gif
) the opportunity to state our opinions about what should be in any website, IN GENERAL.

Overall, I don't believe CK has perpatrated an offense. I also would not like for the threads to be moved.

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Yeah! Drop the chalupa...
 
I think Both Cumberland's threads And Gene's naming contest thread were OK. It's true that Cumberland's first post (the giveway thread) seemed more like an advertisement than anything else. But he was just announcing a business. And Mike Turber was the first poster in the thread and didn’t express any difficulty. In fact, he was very supportive. I think you need to look at not only the content and intent of the thread or post, but the context of the post and the history of the poster.

Cumberland has no history of abusing the forums expressly to advertise that I am aware of. His second post was asking, rather generally, for types of things folks wanted or desired. It looked something like one of the Poll threads that happen from time to time. If it had not been posted by a dealer, I don't think anyone would have cared at all. I thought it turned out to be a fun thread for a lot of reasons. Would these posts have been more appropriate in the dealers forum? I suppose so. But cut the new guy a little slack. He seems to have figured out what the rules are quickly enough anyway.

The Name My Business thread by Gene was/is a great topic. Lots of folks Were having a great deal of fun with it. There is the contest element, but Gene does not Yet even have a business to sell stuff from. A bunch of folks are trying to be creative, help a fellow forum member, and Maybe win a knife. Seems to be all in good fun. Nobody is jumping to off site commercial links in these threads.

So I think All Three threads were Okey-dokey. Mike Turber is thinking about how to express and enforce policy about advertising by dealers here in the general forum. It's really a very difficult problem on a site like this. I don't see many examples of obvious abuse. Moderate moderation ought to be sufficient. A clear statement of policy might help. A gentle reminder of the appropriate forum or email by a moderator or administrator ought to be sufficient.

If you eliminate Anything that could possibly be construed as being helpful to a dealer, everybody misses out on good information. There are a lot of posts that cut the line very thinly. But that is what Knives are all about, no? I want to hear from James, Les, Sal, Bernard, and others. If they are posting to answer questions, and their sig line link helps their business, Great!

With many moderators owning retail businesses, and so many forum members preoccupied with the economics of owning knives, this problem is always going to be here. I don’t think any Absolute policy is going to work very well. Every case will have to be considered on its own. I think the rules are already sufficient. There are different forums here for a reason. We can All help steer things to the right place. There is no reason to over-react to a few finger pointing complaints.

One of my personal annoyances is Community or non-knife topics posted here in the general forum. When this is pointed out, posters will sometimes say, 'but I wanted folks to read it'. It is true that the community forum doesn't get the same traffic that the general forum does, and this is also certainly true about the Dealers For Sale and What's New forums. But we can all try to be more careful about posting things in the appropriate place and checking into to ALL of the places here at BladeForums that might have information we want. Bladeforums is stronger if everyone participates in any forum area of interest, not just the general forum.

Let's all chill out a little and have a little more fun. I don't see that Cumberland or Gene have methodically abused their right to start threads. I don’t think any of these threads needed to be locked or moved. A pattern of abuse must be dealt with. Single incidents should be judged on their own terms.


Paracelsus, speaking Only as a forum member
 
I don't mind a small plug here and there. I really do like the posts that anounce new products. They should only anounce new products though, and not address where to buy them unless someone asks, then it would be fine to say , yes we have them in stock.
I don't see anything wrong with a dealer or maker asking what people are interested in. Thats info evryone can use. If your not interestd in selling stuff, you may be interested in what everyone else wants. There could be something out there that you never knew about, but would be interested in.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
We have seperate forums for a reason - to have the right traffic go into the right places, and to prevent "Mission Creep"; ie - one forum turning into the place for anything.

Did the threads really, absolutely need need to have been moved? No, they didn't. Should they have? Yes, because we already have forums for them. Of the 3, I was more inclined to leave Gene's because he doens't already have a business started, but is just looking for a business name.

Our policies are pretty clear - advertising belongs in the Exchange section, not in the General forum. People will try to find ways around that, either intentionally or unintentionally, but the facts remain that the thread belong elsewhere.

If you want to let someone know that you have a knife business in every post, you've got a signature where you can post your URL. If you want to advertise that you are doing this, that or the other, creating a new site, having a sale, etc, then that's better done in the Exchange section. Better yet, buy a banner ad to, and return something to the community where you are making your money from, right?

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Some random thoughts ... IMHO the Suggestion Box forum is more for suggestions to add new forums or make changes in the software than for meta discussions. Meta discussions (discussions of policy or how the discussion should be conducted) belong in the forum they're relevant to -- for instance if you have a suggestion about TGBU post it in TGBU where I'll see it and the members of that forum will see it, and we can discuss it there. (One exception: if your suggestion is that I'm a fascist dictator and ought to be impeached you might be afraid if you post that in TGBU the fascist dictator will censor it, so you might post that one somewhere else ... if anybody is considering such a suggestion I suggest you try posting it in the appropriate forum first, though, and see if it gets censored or not.)

Meta discussions are not a bad thing! They're not a sign that the moderation is all wrong and the moderators are dorks, or that there are ungrateful seditious malcontents among the members, either. Healthy forums have meta discussions frequently -- usually more or less calm and rational, but sometimes they get heated, and that's not a terrible thing either.

We have an ongoing question on these forums about advertising and I don't think that question will ever be fully resolved. I don't think we can ever come up with a consistent explicit set of rules that would allow all the posts we want and exclude all the posts we don't want. On the other hand I don't think that problem will ever destroy these forums either. We'll go on discussing it and muddling through cases as they arise for as long as these forums exist.

The only thing that could ever destroy these forums would be the invention of the perfect knife. Then we'd have nothing to talk about.



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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
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