Balance Point

KAISA

KAISA

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
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34
Hello Blade community

Hope this found the right place

I am interested in learning how to balance a blade , (sword, epee, long knife) about the weight of the pommel , guard , and grip - compared to the weight of the blade, the distal taper - and figuring things out. What to look for in the blade itself (weight distribution) and if anybody has a tipp - I started playing around a bit with different weights and materials and am curious about your inputs.

I did search a bit now - and literature seems rather scarce - so any tipp (book, link, scientific publication, link) I will be grateful for

If I remember things right, Bill Bagwell stated at one point in his book, u should practice with a cut off Foil.

Thank you in advance
KAiSa
 
I can help you with this a little bit based on my own personal experiences. I will write something more at length later today.
 
Rereading your post, I’m not sure I’m the right guy for it. I’m a user, not a maker. I do have a fair amount of experience with the balance points of epees and other training swords. What exactly are you looking for?
 
Box_Opener said:
Rereading your post, I’m not sure I’m the right guy for it. I’m a user, not a maker. I do have a fair amount of experience with the balance points of epees and other training swords. What exactly are you looking for?
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I think you are the man
It‘s exactly this.
Balancing an Epee
 
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I cant provide links, but I think maybe, Tinker Pierce, did some good geometrical assessments, on balance,and point of rotation, in relation to handle and blade length, maybe google some old sword forums? But as a maker it made sense.
Different swords have different applications.
 
That is some great news!
Just will have to figure out how to find the nodes!
 
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Here is the balance point on what I would consider to be a pretty typical training epee:

IMG_8422.jpeg

For a competition epee it’s going to depend on personal preference but you want it maybe 3-2 fingers off the front of the bell guard.

Modern fighter/utility blades tend to orient around the front finger. Murray carter puts his FS1 blade balance points directly in the middle of the front finger. This makes for a nimble, cutting oriented blade. Carothers shivs put the balance point immediately to the front of the finger:

IMG_8421.jpeg

This helps with stabbing type motions by allowing the tip to have a bit of weight as you extend your arm. This is the same principle as the epee.

You can adjust the balance of an epee yourself by adding washers in front of the pommel nut or by cutting off some of the threaded rod.
 
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Wow!
First of all Thank you!
Thats a great answer.
Murray Carter and Carother are both not known to me.
Why would you want your training weapon to be different than your competition weapon? In what - if so I would want to make it heavier, …
I am not saying it‘s not possible, but even with a very light grip, I can‘t get the point so much forward - I will have to use a foil weight - playing with the washers does change a bit, right now the finger would be around 2 - 4 cm - above the bell, can make a picture - it varies a bit on different pieces - also playing with different manufacturers and handles. But won‘t change it so much to the front.
So probably I am good - then but just wondering - why you want it to be so tipp heavy.
Thanks again!
 
KAISA said:
Wow!
First of all Thank you!
Thats a great answer.
Murray Carter and Carother are both not known to me.
Why would you want your training weapon to be different than your competition weapon? In what - if so I would want to make it heavier, …
I am not saying it‘s not possible, but even with a very light grip, I can‘t get the point so much forward - I will have to use a foil weight - playing with the washers does change a bit, right now the finger would be around 2 - 4 cm - above the bell, can make a picture - it varies a bit on different pieces - also playing with different manufacturers and handles. But won‘t change it so much to the front.
So probably I am good - then but just wondering - why you want it to be so tipp heavy.
Thanks again!
Click to expand...
What would also be possible - to bring it to the index finger - but then I would need a lead tape and figure out what it does. As its about 6-8 cm from where its now
 
Training weapons are of lower quality and they have a large rubber tip. Those two factors pull the balance forward. It is not a good thing—it’s just the way it is.

You can try different manufacturer grips of different sizes. I started with french and uncoated belgian grips then went with the smallest possible visconti grips as I got more experience. Also, different material for the bell guard changes balance as well.

My advice is to just try a bunch of stuff until you find what feels right, then forget about it.
 
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I will say that you probably want something in front of your lead finger. It is helpful to have a torque point to work with as you manipulate the blade.
 
That is a great advice, try it out what feels good for you and forget about it.
Maybe it helps its a french grip, and even with a heavy blade and a light guard - I won‘t bring the point so much forward - as in the pictures, usually I have it two to three fingers in front of the guard which is about 2.5-4 cm, and what you mentioned, thank you so much again! If I understood you right, thats about where you want it to be.
Only I can try - to bring it further back just for the try and feel factor.
Thanks again!
 
French is tough. It takes time to get your finger strength up. Bringing it back towards your index finger will probably help. You might find that what you like changes as your hand strength improves and you may prefer pushing the balance point out. All part of the fun. I envy you.

The winner of mens epee at the 96 Olympics was using a french grip.
 
Box_Opener said:
French is tough. It takes time to get your finger strength up. Bringing it back towards your index finger will probably help. You might find that what you like changes as your hand strength improves and you may prefer pushing the balance point out. All part of the fun. I envy you.

The winner of mens epee at the 96 Olympics was using a french grip.
Click to expand...
Also the Winner of 2021
I see it as a Journey !
 
Box_Opener said:
Cool! I didn’t know that. I’ll have to watch Paris this year.
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Also Grumier, 3. or 2. 2016 did fence French Grip.

Interesting that at one point the Germans thought Orthopaedic Grips would be superior - and 98% go for them.

Can‘t add a picture…
 
My last and best Epee coach was a German national team member snd multiple NCAA champion. The pistol grip was very useful for the outside preparations at the beginning of an attack. The heel of the palm was a favorite target. Very little can be done about it.
 
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