Bark River's 12C27 vs A2

C

Curse

Joined
Dec 28, 2007
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I was wondering if anyone could comment on the performance difference between BRKT's 12C27 and A2 steels. I like designs that utilize either steel, and I think this would be the last factor in making my decision. Thanks!
 
I like A2 better because it seems to sharpen to a finer edge... I can definitely get it sharper than 12C27. THat doesn;t mean I dislike 12C27, just that the only reason I would prefer it is if I wanted a knife solely for a wet or damp environement.

The 12C27 has kept me from taking the plunge on a Barkie or three........
 
The A2 is a tool/carbon steel and will rust. It will take a finer edge than the 12C27, and hold it longer.

The 12C27 is stainless, and resists rusting. It will a fine edge, but not quite as fine as the A2, and won't hold it quite as long. But with Mike's heat treat, it's a lot better than any other 12C27 out there. Most folks really can't tell the difference between it and the A2 in reallife use - apart form the the stainless bit!

Will I prefer the A2 for most uses, I have a number of 12C27 Barkies that I use regularly, including kitchen knives. No regrets here! :thumbup:
 
I think for EDC and smaller knife to accent like an Aurora or North Star, the 12C27 may be better for me, agree?
 
Curse said:
I think for EDC and smaller knife to accent like an Aurora or North Star, the 12C27 may be better for me, agree?
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I edc two Barkies, the Blackwater Boot which is 12C27 and a three-finger Mini Canadian custom that is A2. I honestly don't base my decision on which one I carry on the steel but the use, and the aesthetics. Yes the A2 has a more biting and durable edge, but I don't need ultra performance on my EDC all the time, and, as Grampa said, the 12C27 treatment results in superior properties. Hence, I go by what I like. I know this comment doesn't help much, because it is hedonistic. But what the heck, I like being hedonistic.
;);)
Michael
 
Both are good steels, but I prefer carbon steel over stainless on my fixed blades. I find that an A2 blade provides superior performance compared to 12C27 even though it can stain. However, if you don't like a blade that stains, then go with 12C27. You can't go wrong with either steel, because all Bark River knives are known to have excellent blade geometry. In 12C27 case, it helps a lot.
 
My Northstar, Mini-Canadian & Micro-Canadian are all in A2. My Mini-Northstar is in 12C27. I have carried and use them all with much satisfaction! They are all very easy to keep sharp. Now, my "Mini-Northstar" in "12C27" gets carried and used the most because it's hot, hummid, rainy, sweety, ......... and I work outside all day. My Mini-Northstar 12c27 seems to be the sharpist one of the bunch! I really think that it is just the easiest to sharpin(for me anyway). Just the right size/ easy to work with. Anyway, for EDC I would not worry at all about Mike's 12C27! That is my opinion and I have "used the crap" out of this 12c27 blade! :) Good luck, Matt
 
I like 12C27. It is easy to sharpen, takes a good edge, and is pretty tough. Mike doesn't choose his steels randomly. It is a good steel for wet environments. I have several knives in that steel and I like them all. One of them is the Bark River Wet Enviro Recon. If you aren't worried about having to oil your knife on occasion and store it dry, go with the A2.
 
Curse said:
I think for EDC and smaller knife to accent like an Aurora or North Star, the 12C27 may be better for me, agree?
Click to expand...

I think it's an excellent steel as a companion to a larger A2 blade like you mentioned. In fact, that's how I like it. I have two mini-Skinners and a mini-Northstar in 12C27, and they're just fine. The mini-Northstar gets carried on average about 4 days a week.
 
We are currently doing a Fox River Magnum passaround in the wilderness forum. My, and others' experieces with 12c27 in a big knife have been excellent. The only real-world difference I can tell between the 12C27 and A2 is that the stainless doesn;t ruast or develop a patina like A2.

A2 is probably my favorite knife steel, but I feel more than comfortable with the BRKT 12C27. My mountaineer and PSK - both in 12C27, are two of the sharpest knives I've ever owned, bar none.

Here's a link to the passaround thread with others' commentaries:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572903
 
Well, in my experience the difference is vast, I would trust both toughness wise but the way they sharpen, there is no comparison: A2 is probably THE easiest steel to sharpen for me (of the steels I have experience with) and my Barkies in A2 are THE sharpest knives (they have tested the sharpest, this is not just a vague impression). The only competition are two japanese kitchen knives made from very pure plain carbon steel (shirogami and aogami [well aogami is somewhat alloyed but lets not split hairs]). The only stainless steel that comes close is ZDP-189, and 12C27 is pretty far down the list for me.

BUT it has the advantage of being stainless.

I like my Settler in 12C27, but I do wish it was A2.
 
I'm surprised the differences noted between A2 and 12C27, I would almost think that the differences are due to expectations rather than realistic differences, at least assuming that the heat treatment Bark River uses for 12C27 is as good as reported. 12C27 has a finer carbide structure than A2, meaning it could potentially be tougher and take a finer edge, though A2 is far from a coarse carbide steel. The wear resistance is fairly similar, with A2 maybe being somewhat better. 12C27 is one of the easiest steels to sharpen I've experienced.
 
I have several barkies and while they are all sharp I have noticed a slight differance in sharpness between the individual knives. My sharpest barkie right now is my mini skinner in 12c27. It came that way and I havn't managed to mess it up yet.

I have also noticed that I cannot get them much sharper than the way they came to me which leads me to think, since they are hand sharpened, that there is a slight variation in edges causing this.

They are all very sharp and I'm very satisfied with them, so much so that I have kind of lost interest in my other knives a little bit. My sharpest folder is my spyderco tenacious. It came very sharp and I experimented by swiping it on my leather strop and it just boggles my mind how sharp it is. My yin (or is it yang), the plain edged kitchen knife, is my all time sharpest knife.

I can cut plastic strapping, thick plastic jugs, clam packs, and cans with my barkies and have not had an edge roll. I cannot say the same for my other knives.

There is nothing wrong with the other knives, I have just come to appreciate a convex edge. Funny though, because I have some swamp rats and while I like them a lot they did not blow me away with their convexness. I think it's the coating. I think if I sanded the coating off they would slice better. Of course I'm not going to do that, I'm just pointing out my observations. And the first time I used my camp tramp I got a tiny chip in the edge. I was cutting a stick to prop my fishing pole with, it wasn't even a hard one and no knot. I got it mostly out stropping with sandpaper but it kind of bummed me out. It could happen with any knife though, even my barkies.

Actually the barkies make me appreciate my swampies more because I now know the true toughness potential of the convex edge and I'm glad I got them when I did.

So I guess the point of this long winded post is that sometimes there are other factors besides the type of steel a knife is made of. Well except stain resistance of course.
 
Grandpa. I am curious as to what testing went into determining that Bark Rivers heat treatment makes that steel better than any other knife made with the same steel? How many brands of knives were involved in the testing and was it done my independent testers? Thanks.
 
StretchNM said:
I like A2 better because it seems to sharpen to a finer edge... I can definitely get it sharper than 12C27. THat doesn;t mean I dislike 12C27, just that the only reason I would prefer it is if I wanted a knife solely for a wet or damp environement.

The 12C27 has kept me from taking the plunge on a Barkie or three........
Click to expand...


agree,,,also dont know if this has been stated or if is even revelent to the OP but A2 steel gives some pretty nice sparks if ever needed,,:)
 
Larrin said:
I'm surprised the differences noted between A2 and 12C27, I would almost think that the differences are due to expectations rather than realistic differences, at least assuming that the heat treatment Bark River uses for 12C27 is as good as reported. 12C27 has a finer carbide structure than A2, meaning it could potentially be tougher and take a finer edge, though A2 is far from a coarse carbide steel. The wear resistance is fairly similar, with A2 maybe being somewhat better. 12C27 is one of the easiest steels to sharpen I've experienced.
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Well, as I have said many times before, there is simply no evidence of strong correlation between commonly achieved sharpness and grain structure. In theory there might be one but fact is that if the carbide size would really determine the edge radius, I should be impossible to get D2 to shave. But even if carbide size is not the limit but only the limiting factor, people should be able to sharpen 12C27 about 25+ times sharper than D2 because that is the rough size difference of the carbides. Considering that you can get D2 to shave easily, the edge radius on those D2 blades has to be around 1-2 microns, which implies that it should be possible for the same people to achieve an edge radius of 0.04 mircons on a 12C27 blade..... which is at least AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE off the mark. So clearly, there are FAR more important factors that determine ultimate sharpness. Again, we are not arguing over a discrepancy of a few percent, but over a factor of 10.

I am not saying that you won't be able to see differences in sharpening behavior due to carbide size and volume, nor am I saying that edge stability, depending on geometry, is not affected by carbide size, but ultimate sharpness at "normal" geometries (greater than 10 deg per side) is obviously not very much dependent on carbide size. I am sure you will get a few percent difference between a coarse grained and a fine grained steel....enough to notice a difference when the carbide size is significantly different (like between 12C27 and D2), but I very much doubt that grain size is a noticeable factor for ultimate sharpness when the difference in grain structure is a mere factor of two or similar.

Personally, I think burr formation is far more important and that has clearly been the problem for me: A2 sharpens beautifully, I don't have to raise the angle to get rid of residual burrs, I don't even have to watch out for it. It is very easy to get a very clean and polished edge. 12C27 on the other hand feels like rubber in comparison. Not as bad as my experiences with 420HC but not nearly as good as ZDP-189 for example either. It doesn't hold an edge for me as long as A2 either, which I am sure has nothing to do with wear resistance but simply with the fact that the edge is still not as true as it should be, and that the residual wire deforms easily. The burr alone prevents very low edge angles or demands a large difference in angle between the primary and secondary bevel. I could grind an S30V blade on a nice diamond stone to a nub, before I get a really clean edge straight to < 10 deg per side on the sample of 12C27 I have. This behavior seems to me generally very much dependent on the falling ratio of C to Cr in the steel. But I have no solid proof to back that up. It is just an impression.

As I said, toughness doesn't even enter this evaluation. I have seen pictures of Mike or Sharpshooter testing the bend strength of their 12C27 blades, and it is pretty crazy how it holds up. I am also skipping the discussion of what would happen at angles below 10 deg per side, as in my use those edges have never held up sufficiently well for me. I have not tried all possible angles but somewhere below 20 deg per side I find that I have to be more careful with the edge than I am will to be, even though it makes for a terrific cutter.
 
So what you're saying is Bark River doesn't heat treat 12C27 to a high enough hardness.
 
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