basic, dumb question

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rrpalma

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It is my understanding that when considering different kinds of steel, there's always a trade-off between hardness / edge retention vs corrosion resistance / been stainless.

Now, I don't want to start another Leatherman vs Vic thread, but given that some Leatherman multitools are somewhat more prone to rusting under certain conditions than Swisstools, is it right to assume that Victorinox uses a "softer" steel? What steel does Vic actually use?

I've got several Swisstools, but have even more Leathermans, and was just curious. Thanks for your comments.
 
I have a leatherman wave and surge that have been on my belt every day for the last 4 years. They get sweaty and immersed in water all the time. I only oil the pivot points about 1-2 times a year. I have never had a spec of rust show up on either one. I have never seen a leatherman rust. I have seen a lot of gerbers rust though. I would venture to say that leatherman either uses better steel than Vic or it is heat treated better.
 
rrpalma said:
I've got several Swisstools, but have even more Leathermans, and was just curious.
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What is your own experience with them?

I was alternating carrying a Leatherman Blast and the very similar Swisstool Spirit through some hot, humid weather, on my belt under a shirt. Both rusted -- but only slightly and only on the lock release buttons. :)

Both of them were also polished steel, which rusts much less easily than beadblast.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
What is your own experience with them?
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Thanks for answering. None of my Leathermans (or Victorinox) has ever rusted. Not even my 13 yr old Wave. I do treat them occasionally with some Shooter's Choice FP-10.

My reason for asking though is that I will be traveling to South America, and practically living yards from the Pacific Ocean. Trying to figure out which one I should take.
 
Considering your history and experience in maintenance, you'll be fine with whatever you bring. Since you'll be far from home, perhaps the most capable would be best, the one with the most tools you could possibly use, rather than a lighter-weight, simpler one.
 
Take the one that handles abuse the best. You can replace a broken or rusted knife but you cant replace your life. Good luck on your vacation.
 
Hello,

I am curious about something (actually a lot of things - typical engineer). Were the ones you reported rusting carried in a nylon or leather sheath?

Look forward to your reponses - thanks - Joe
 
Now, I don't want to start another Leatherman vs Vic thread, but given that some Leatherman multitools are somewhat more prone to rusting under certain conditions than Swisstools, is it right to assume that Victorinox uses a "softer" steel? What steel does Vic actually use?
Click to expand...

It would be wrong to assume that Victorinox uses a softer steel since steel hardness does not correlate with propensity to rust.

The reason Leathermans are more prone to rusting than Victorinox tools is that Victorinoxs are finished with a very high polish. The higher the polish the less tiny crevices in the steel for rust to "seat" and develop. On a Swisstool all the tools are polished to a very shiny, smooth surface so their is little place for the rust to develop. Tools on the Leatherman are not polished as highly as Victorinox and as such there is more tiny crevices for rust to develop.

What steel either company uses is not super secret. I can't find them in my notes right now but I have seen the designation for the steel both Leatherman and Victorinox use.
 
I had a Leatherman PST that was 1997 vintage. I had to send it in for warranty repair/ replacement because a pivot went. No signs of corrosion whatsoever.
 
spoonrobot said:
steel hardness does not correlate with propensity to rust.
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Thanks for your comment. However, I beg to differ. Although most generalizations are not true, this is taken from Leatherman's site:

"Depending on the mix of metal alloys, stainless steels may be highly corrosion resistant and relatively soft (like kitchen flatware), or they may be somewhat corrosion resistant and quite hard. Our products are fabricated from the latter type, so your tool components are strong and the knives retain a sharp cutting edge. Consequently, corrosion can occur in the absence of proper maintenance."

You can see it here:
http://www.leatherman.com/customer-service/tool-maintenance.asp

Thanks for reading.
 
rrpalma said:
Thanks for your comment. However, I beg to differ. Although most generalizations are not true, this is taken from Leatherman's site:

"Depending on the mix of metal alloys, stainless steels may be highly corrosion resistant and relatively soft (like kitchen flatware), or they may be somewhat corrosion resistant and quite hard. Our products are fabricated from the latter type, so your tool components are strong and the knives retain a sharp cutting edge. Consequently, corrosion can occur in the absence of proper maintenance."

You can see it here:
http://www.leatherman.com/customer-service/tool-maintenance.asp

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...

Remember that you are reading it on a manufacturer's webpage. They are not attempting to present a scientific, nor necessarily fact-based, viewpoint but are instead trying to educate their customers in order to sell a product.

Please understand that there are not only two different types of steel in the world, corrosion resistance depends not only on steel composition but steel finish, polish and coating. Why do you think knives with a beadblast finish are known as rust-buckets while knives with the same steel but a high polish are not?

Now back to the original question. According to this thread Victorinox tools are hardened to different degrees depending on use. According to Leatherman their tools are done the same way.

Checking the hardness rating for Victorinox yeilds this information:
* Blades – Stainless chrome molybdenum steel, mixed from carbon, chrome, molybdenum, manganese & silicum.
* Blade Hardening – 1,900 degrees F. (and annealing temperature of 140 degrees). RC 56.
* Wood saw, scissors and nail files – RC 53.
* Screwdrivers, tin openers and awls – RC 52.
* Corkscrew and springs – RC 49.

Seen here, is a chart that supposedly shows the composition of the Victorinox steel (under INOX) but I have also seen it refered to as 1.4110. The actual designation for the steel may be different but the hardness numbers above are concrete. Another good link about Victorinox Steel.

Those numbers indicated the Victorinox does not use a "soft corrosion resistant" steel. I feel that 52-56 Rockwells is on the mid-to-upper hardness ratings for tools, I believe Leatherman is either at or near this area also. If Leatherman hardened their tools more than this they would be much too brittle with little gain in use.

Moving along to the Leatherman side of things, what steel do they use? According to Leatherman's own webpage the steel they use is:

What kind of steel do you use?
Leatherman tools are made of 400-series stainless steel. Carbon content and heat-treated hardness vary depending on the specific implement.
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Now, 400 series steel can vary widely in regards to corrosion resistance, edge retention, durability and every other steel characteristic. 400 series is a good benchmark though because the common comparison steel to Victorinox steel is 440A; a fairly good knife blade steel and a good candidate for the Leatherman tool steel. I have been unable to find out exactly what steel Leatherman uses for general implements, nor what the hardness ratings are but I suspect, like most posters here, that the general implements are all finished in 420 steel with certain items hardened differently(the file) or using different steel (wood saw?). 420 steel is not a bad steel for this use, it is cheap and durable enough but with the typical rough polish of most Leathermans rust is going to be an issue(as many already know).

So what did we learn today?

We learned that the Leatherman webpage is of little use to the discerning buyer and that Victorinox uses, at the very least, a steel equal to Leatherman and is actually more corrosion resistant due to the high polish of the steel, not the hardness. Just to drive this point home, steel hardness generally does not show a correlation to corrosion resistance. The steel finish and composion are much more important in this regard.
 
Actually all we learned today is your opinion. Leatherman makes some tools that have blades made of S30V and 154CM. They also make some of the tools with titanium parts.
 
Actually, we got more than just an opinion. We got numbers and other specific information. While it's true Leatherman has upgraded steel in some of its premium tools, the data on ordinary Leatherman vs.Victorinox still holds.
 
ashtxsniper said:
Actually all we learned today is your opinion. Leatherman makes some tools that have blades made of S30V and 154CM. They also make some of the tools with titanium parts.
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True, the plain edge knife blade on the Charge AL/ALX is 154CM and the plain edge knife blade on the Charge TTi is S30V. The scales on the TTi are titanium while the scales on the AL/ALX are aluminum as are the scales on the Juice and Squirt Lines. The bits sold in the bit kit are tool steel (S-2?).

Leatherman also uses plastic liners on some models and even entire plastic handle covers with rubber inserts on other models.

It's hard to balance out with the specific information given about the Victorinox but I was giving a general overview of the Leatherman steel composition since the poster seemed to already be pretty well informed about Leatherman tools and seemed a little in the dark about Victorinox.

That and the search button just didn't yield as much for me about Leatherman as it did Victorinox.
 
Actually I have been trying to find out what type of stainless is used in the wave and surge with no great success so any help on the matter would be greatlyappreciated. I guess it all comes down to the personal preference. Kinda like the whole Chevy/Ford or 9mm/45 acp debates.
 
Thanks for all your comments and opinions.

Even if we don't agree on everything, it is extremely valuable (at least to me) to know other people's opinions.

So, spoonrobot, basically what you're saying is:

1. both Leatherman and Victorinox use steel with about the same characteristics (INOX/420, 400 series), but Vics might be less prone to rust because the high polishing of its surfaces?

2. Still, for the cutting blade then, some Leatherman models use then a better steel (154CM, S30V) than Victorinox (who uses INOX / 420 to different hardness for each implement) ?

Thanks again for all the comments.
 
rrpalma said:
1. both Leatherman and Victorinox use steel with about the same characteristics (INOX/440, 400 series), but Vics might be less prone to rust because the high polishing of its surfaces?
Click to expand...

Let's say, similar characteristics since we don't know specifically what the steel Leatherman uses nor how they heat treat certain items. From what I understand the two are very close. And yes, Victorinox will rust less than Leatherman due to the high polish. This has been my experience and all of the hobbyists I have spoken to have had concurrent experiences.

2. Still, for the cutting blade then, some Leatherman models use then a better steel (154CM, S30V) than Victorinox (who uses INOX /440 to different hardness for each implement) ?
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Yes, Leatherman is currently the only multi-tool manufacturer that uses a premium steel in some of their plain edge knife blades. Victorinox uses the same steel for it's knife blades but hardens the steel more.

ashtxsniper,

Every source I could find labled the steel in the Wave/Surge as some kind of 420.
 
Thanks Spoonrobot. I am a little disappointed I was hoping the blades were made of at least 440.
 
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