Batoners Anonymous (breaking the habit)

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xtramile

Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
103
Well I hate to admit it but a few years ago when I first started getting into knives I was sucked into the Nutnfancy Batonaholic knife abuse gang. I put my Ka-Bar USMC through so much I am surprised it is still in one piece.

Well from here on out I will not be batoning anything more than light kindling to start a fire. My only problem is that I am already feeling under equipped.... Before I could take my USMC out on a day hike and I felt assured (a false sense of security I might add) knowing that I could split some pretty big would if need be. But now I am going to down size my day hike knife, and to be honest I am going through withdrawals.

Any one else feel my pain? How did you kick the habit?

XM
 
I have been batonning wood for over 30 years...long before I knew there was a term for it. I live in a rain forest so it is a technique I use a lot and have no intentions of quitting all together. However any time i split anything larger than say 3 inches it is nothing more than a test of a knife design, a steel, or a heat treat, there is nothing really practical about it as it's hardly ever actually necessary. After a while you'll get tired of putting that much effort into something just for the heck of it and just do what you need to get the fire so you can have more time to relax and just enjoy the trip. A lot of times I'll have only an ESEE-3 for my fixed blade on a day hike (that's about as minimal as I get) and it has always handled all of my real needs...I just wish it had a slightly thicker blade, say about 5/32 rather than just under 1/8. My Fiddleback Hiking Buddy handled everything I threw at it, splitting kindling wood to making bow drill sets...then my wife ended up with it. I still will often carry a larger knife, 5-6 inch blade when I head deeper into the bush, but I still don't do as much chopping and splitting anymore as I once did...just enough to accomplish the task at hand for fire, shelter, or whatever. The older you get the less it seems like fun and the more it seems like work, and when the point is to get away and relax what's the sense in working so hard? I get enough of that when I am actually testing tools.
 
that sums up a lot of what i want to hear. being in a rain forest, and not having a good supply of dry wood what do you do though? i live in a very wet environment and i think i would have a hard time finding good size wood to sustain a fire that was not soaked. and batoning was always my way out of that. split it and get it to the dry core, or increase the surface area exposed toward the fire to dry it out before putting it on.
 
xtramile said:
that sums up a lot of what i want to hear. being in a rain forest, and not having a good supply of dry wood what do you do though? i live in a very wet environment and i think i would have a hard time finding good size wood to sustain a fire that was not soaked. and batoning was always my way out of that. split it and get it to the dry core, or increase the surface area exposed toward the fire to dry it out before putting it on.
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When it's really wet I break and split as large a wood as whatever knife I have on me will allow. My main key is, since I am usually alone or the one responsible for the fire, to gather everything I need to sustain fire before igniting anything. I gather my larger stuff first and setting some aside to split I use the rest as a base to pile my smaller stuff on. As long as collected off the ground then 2 to 2-1/2, maybe 3 inch diameter limbs will be dry enough in the center to burn good with the right tinder and kindling. Using chemical tinders like trioxane or even fatwood I'll collect the driest smallest stuff I can off the ground and a bunch of it to get the fire started and build the coal bed. I get everything piled up at my fire spot, go ahead and split some of the larger stuff, however much I need to get things started good. Less if I can find a lot of smaller stuff and more and into smaller pieces if not. Usually with enough small stuff splitting the first lot into quarters is sufficient and the rest just in halves but if limited on small stuff then some into eighths. I'll have all of my materials ready to go, ignite the tinder, add the smaller fuel up to finger sized, as I pile on more small stuff I'll add some of the larger stuff with it and once I get the fire stabilized and burning good I'll keep splitting and stacking my wood close to the fire. Once the bed of coals is deep and hot enough then usually splitting of dead material collected off the ground is no longer necessary. The one thing about wet weather fires is that it is hard to have a small fire, at least to start with, the drawing effect of the flames through more twigs and branches increases the heat and makes wet wood dry and catch fire quicker so a larger fire works better to start with for drying then once the ground is dry at the fire area and you have a good healthy bad of coals it's easier to decrease the size of the fire and let the coals do the work. Another thing I do is build my fires between two larger limbs or a big rock and a log or something similar the open ends allow for oxygen to be drawn in but the objects on the side impeded radiation of the heat and vector more of that heat up through the wet stuff drying it quicker.

Edit: To add here if no chemical tinder or good natural tinders are available then splitting the center of the larger stuff into smaller pieces will work for initial tinder and kindling it's just more work. Just follow the same rules as usual and do three sizes, rougly toothpick size, roughly pencil sized, and roughly finger sized. Enough of this will work fine with matches or a lighter and if using a fire steel the center heart of a 3 inch limb collected from off the ground should be dry enough to whittle fine shavings that will catch sparks from a ferro rod. If you know there is a chance of wet weather I strongly suggest an accelerant of some sort.
 
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I like that. I like that a lot. thanks mist walker for some ideas, i am still not confident in the smaller knife that i will be moving onto. but i think with time and better fire prep and by putting more time into the thought process of my fire i will gain the confidence i am looking for, without the need to baton through 6" rounds.
 
xtramile said:
I like that. I like that a lot. thanks mist walker for some ideas, i am still not confident in the smaller knife that i will be moving onto. but i think with time and better fire prep and by putting more time into the thought process of my fire i will gain the confidence i am looking for, without the need to baton through 6" rounds.
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Hey no problem man, that's what the forum is all about. I'm sure others will add things.

Just out of curiosity, what is this small knife you are moving too?

I don't like doing it, and would never set out equipped only with an SAK, given a choice, but just to test a theory I have achieved sustained fire here out in the wet on snowy ground using only a Wenger Ranger and an Exotac nano striker. It is just more work and the saw gets a good work out. It's the splitting part that gets tricky to do it in a way not to damage the knife. Once I just used a lot more fatwood than usual and that made things a lot easier. It still has to be split to burn good, I just limited the length of the material I split but cutting it down with the saw to reduce the stress on the knife blade when splitting.
 
mistwalker said:
Hey no problem man, that's what the forum is all about. I'm sure others will add things.

I have achieved sustained fire here out in the wet on snowy ground using only a Wenger Ranger and an Exotac nano striker.
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that is true minimalism, very impressive.

and i am dropping down to the mora 2000. the blade is only two inches shorter so it is not like i am going to commit to my izula just yet. but i think the weight, grind, and tang will all motivate me to baton judiciously if at all. and if i wind up not liking it for outdoor use i have a need for a razor sharp, stainless steel, easy access fixed blade to put in my firefighter turnouts.

that is another thing, forgot to add. i will definitely be pairing the mora with an sak. either the farmer or trekker, whichever comes up as a trade offer first. it seems like a tried and true partnership on here and i cannot wait to try it out.
 
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xtramile said:
that is true minimalism, very impressive.

and i am dropping down to the mora 2000. the blade is only two inches shorter so it is not like i am going to commit to my izula just yet. but i think the weight, grind, and tang will all motivate me to baton judiciously if at all. and if i wind up not liking it for outdoor use i have a need for a razor sharp, stainless steel, easy access fixed blade to put in my firefighter turnouts.

that is another thing, forgot to add. i will definitely be pairing the mora with an sak. either the farmer or trekker, whichever comes up as a trade offer first. it seems like a tried and true partnership on here and i cannot wait to try it out.
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Minimalism in tests only. I had back-up at the time :)

I know a few people who carry and love their Mora 2000s, I have to admit I think about getting one now and then just to test out. I hear they are a little thicker than most Moras, but the sight I have been looking at them on lists them as .098" thickness, the same as other Moras so I'm unsure about it. Usually 1/8 or 3mm is about as thin as I like to go and prefer 5/32. The Izula is a tough little knife, don't sell it short, I don't know that I wouldn't choose one over a Mora even with the shorter blade. I have put a few of them through some rough paces and not had any complaints. I bought my oldest daughter an Izula II and to be honest I am considering replacing my old RC-3 with and Izula-II for the thicker blade and not much less length.

An SAK and a fixed blade make a good team, and then something heavier for chopping in the winter.

If you want a lighter fixed blade and are unsure of the Mora, then talk to Bryan Breeden and he could put you something together something like a full tang Mora that would be light and strong for a really reasonable price
 
ya the izula is rock solid. the toughest job i put it through was drilling 10 holes or so in the bottom of a thick heavy duty plastic trash can. i would never have expected that from a knife and it did it without a second guess.

as far as a chopper what are your thoughts on something that is packable? i dont want big heavy and bulky. i love axes but any with a good chopping and splitting ability seems to be too much to pack.
 
xtramile said:
ya the izula is rock solid. the toughest job i put it through was drilling 10 holes or so in the bottom of a thick heavy duty plastic trash can. i would never have expected that from a knife and it did it without a second guess.

as far as a chopper what are your thoughts on something that is packable? i dont want big heavy and bulky. i love axes but any with a good chopping and splitting ability seems to be too much to pack.
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For a light weight chopper a good 12" machete is really hard to beat. I have some big heavy knives that I like but as I get older I find I'm more prone to carry a 12" machete I have that has a 1/8 inch thick blade. My machete is a custom by Andy Roy of Fiddleback Forge and is similar in design to a barong, even on my larger knives I prefer a decent point. Being a custom it is a little pricey for a machete, but I recently noticed that Ontario started using molded handles on their machetes rather than the crappy rivets they used to use. I bought my brother one of their 12-inchers to put his 4 wheeler and he loves it. So if a point on your machete isn't an issue for you that would be a good option.
 
Good post guys, my experience parallels your comments closely. Just a suggestion on the light weight chopper question: the Condor Inca knife might be worth looking into, it's got a good handle and heat treat...(if you don't get hung up on it not being carbon steel).
 
Stickman said:
Good post guys, my experience parallels your comments closely. Just a suggestion on the light weight chopper question: the Condor Inca knife might be worth looking into, it's got a good handle and heat treat...(if you don't get hung up on it not being carbon steel).
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Never used a stainless machete type knife before, but there have been times when it might have been a good option. Do you have any info on blade thickness? Not sure of the good working ranges in RC of 420HC so I'd have to look into that some. Typically I like lower RCs on my machetes than on knives. Which in all honesty is an issue I had run into with longer Ontario machetes in the past, hi RCs that had good edge retention against abrasion but were a bit brittle in winter time use here. It was like they were meant only for a warmer climate or something. I haven't heard of others having that issue lately though.

If stainless is an issue then the hi carbon Condor Bolo could be a good option. It's 1/8-inch 1075 steel. Seems like I've heard some good things about the bolo. With a 10-inch long 1/8-inch thick blade the Condor Speed Bowie could also be a decent light-weight option and I know of at least one member here who is a vendor that carries several condors including these on his website.
 
I find that batoning is no problem for nearly any knife if done properly, under appropriate circumstances, with good technique. I use my knives to baton wrist- to forearm-sized pieces of wood into finger-, pencil-, and matchstick-sized kindling. I've even batoned a Cold Steel 18" barong machete through an entire blown-down tree trunk just to see if I could. You just have to make sure you use an appropriate spot on the blade, read the wood, avoid massive knots, and maintain even pressure through the split. It also comes in handy for rapid and controlled shaping of wood when bushcrafting by tapping the spine of the knife like a woodworking chisel. Doesn't take much force and your left hand just guides the knife while the baton applies the force.

In addition to the Condor models you might also check out the Svord Kiwi machete. It's just shy of a 12" blade in 1/8" stock with a short hollow primary grind and it's done in L6! Talk about tough stuff.
 
does the condor website not list all of there gear? the only two machetes i can find with 12" blades are the village parange and the bolo. i definitely would prefer a machete with some more forward weight, because it seems to me that if i am giong for a smaller packable version, then to compensate i would need more weight towards the tip for better chopping.

the condor inca does not look all too bad. besides the blue handle :barf:
 
xtramile said:
does the condor website not list all of there gear? the only two machetes i can find with 12" blades are the village parange and the bolo. i definitely would prefer a machete with some more forward weight, because it seems to me that if i am giong for a smaller packable version, then to compensate i would need more weight towards the tip for better chopping.

the condor inca does not look all too bad. besides the blue handle :barf:
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It no longer has a blue handle. I actually miss the blue, as it was high visibility without burning the eyes like orange. You might check out their 14" models as well. Still very compact.

I'm a big fan of the Condor Bush Knife, personally. It's an extremely versatile billhook and functions well as a hatchet replacement. You CAN baton it, too, by using the "hatchet" blade, tilting the handle down just a hair, and striking the nose of the hook.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm a big fan of the Condor Bush Knife, personally. It's an extremely versatile billhook and functions well as a hatchet replacement.
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well the question begs to be asked, what tasks do you find yourself doing with the billhook? i could imagine it doing very well at limbing trees, but not much more.

well i am off to another 14 hour day at school, so i will have to pick this conversation up tomorrow.
 
Just about everything! Limbing, splitting, felling, clearing or trimming woody stemmed plants, using the point of the hook as a pick for loosening rotted wood when fatwood hunting, rough shaping of wood (think carpenter's hatchet) and use as a push/draw knife. You'd be surprised at what you can do with a good double-sided billhook.
 
I'm not apposed to batoning, but in the thousands of days and nights I've spent living outdoors all around the world I've never needed to baton anything to get a fire started or keep it going. When I need dry shaving to start a fire I whittle down to them rather than use my knife to split wood. I think I can whittle a pile of course and fine shavings quicker than I can baton kindling. Once that bit of tinder is obtained, it's pretty hard for me to imagine needing to continue to split wood to maintain a fire.

Most the batoining demonstrations you see are with pieces of sawn stove wood, which begs the question why split wood with a knife when you apparently have access to a chainsaw?

If you're out in the field and want to baton something, then either you have a saw with you or you're batoning pieces of wood small enough to break by hand. Either way I think it's generally wasted effort to keep splitting firewood verses just collecting choicer pieces of wood and constructing your fire to pre-heat wet pieces.

If using your knife to split wood is the way you like to build fires then by all means go for it, but it is not necessary. I guess it's possible I've just been lucky and never run into that situation where it was baton or freeze, but I doubt it. I've always managed to get the fire lit without pounding on the spine of my knife.
 
sutured said:
I'm not apposed to batoning, but in the thousands of days and nights I've spent living outdoors all around the world I've never needed to baton anything to get a fire started or keep it going. When I need dry shaving to start a fire I whittle down to them rather than use my knife to split wood. I think I can whittle a pile of course and fine shavings quicker than I can baton kindling. Once that bit of tinder is obtained, it's pretty hard for me to imagine needing to continue to split wood to maintain a fire.
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Living outdoors as in military service or another vocation outdoors where going home or to another structure just because it had rained every day for the last couple of weeks wasn't an available option? If not then that could make a difference.

I can see your point and there are some knives out there that I may choose that same rout. Ones that I feel would hold up to whittling better than some light batonning, but I wouldn't be carrying them by choice considering an Old Hickory butcher knife or even a thinner paring knife will hold up to the task and don't cost all that much. Most of my knives since the 80s have been heavy bladed enough and strong enough structurally to take the light batonning it takes to get to the heart of two and three inch limbs and I preferred to put them through that stress than to put the edge through the abrasion of whittling the various sizes of materials needed to achieve sustained fire in a very wet environment.


sutured said:
If you're out in the field and want to baton something, then either you have a saw with you or you're batoning pieces of wood small enough to break by hand.
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Not necessarily. One of my favorite hardwood fuels to use in very wet weather are to break down some of the abundant standing dead dogwoods in this area. They are a good fuel that makes a good bed of coals, and there is some sort of blight or death from lack of sunlight beneath the canopy has killed/is killing thousands of them in the forests here and left them standing. Even dead they are very solid and ones that are 1-1/2" inch in diameter are in many cases plenty strong enough to make a great walking stick even with the big splits down the length and for someone my size, and breaking those by hand is difficult. Breaking 2 and 3 inch diameter sections of these with bear hands would be far from easy for most people but wedging them between two trees for leverage to break them works ok as does breaking them over the sharp edge of a large-ish rock...you just have to collect the scattered pieces afterwards. Then I just use one of the smaller diameter pieces to tap my knife through another to split into the easier to light inner wood. While I do on occasion split wood in the 4 and 5 inch diameter range I'll be the first to admit it's only ever to test a knife or show off. There is no real practical application for it, but often splitting a bit of 2 inch diameter wood saves me a lot of time, and a lot of my splitting my knife is only struck with the side of my hand. I hope I'm never unfortunate enough to be stuck with a knife that couldn't handle that


sutured said:
I guess it's possible I've just been lucky and never run into that situation where it was baton or freeze, but I doubt it. I've always managed to get the fire lit without pounding on the spine of my knife.
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Not sure that I have ever actually encountered a "baton or freeze" situation. The situation never got a chance to play out the other way so who knows. I have encountered several "baton or take longer to warm up or eat" situations. After hours spent out in a boat running nets and traps in the winter and being chilled to the bone miles down river from camp, I was just never really patient enough to forego a technique that I knew would achieve my goal quickly so I could just sit, rest, warm up, and get something warm in my stomach.

As you said, we all have our own preferences that come from our own experiences. The cool thing about this forum is that techniques from around the world and from many various experiences can be shared and we can all learn some new things along the way :thumbup:
 
I am with you on this one.
I have traded my large blades (RTAK2 and RTAK) this year and have gotten my "collection" down to fixed blades from 2.5" Izula 2 to a 4" "bushcraft" style. Of course I know have a Boy's Axe if I need to split anything, but I am no longer into large knifes.
 
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