Batons and Khuks...

Kismet

Kismet

Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Messages
7,269
NO, not the twirling kind! A baton (read piece of wood) to hammer the top of the blade to split wood, etc.

I have used to great effect, and maximum safely, a baton to enforce the activity of the khuk I have. With some wood spliting I don't want to have to either hold, or prop up, the target wood as I swing down upon it. Seems to inflict minimal damage to the edged tool, as well.

While the larger blades are sufficient unto themselves, the smaller sized ones serve admireably with er... "baton enhancement."

Oddly, I couldn't find a reference in "search" about the use of them here.


We're all in this together.


Kis
:rolleyes:
 
I have the large end of a mattock handle that works very well for this purpose. I used the other part of the handle to make a new handle for my best carpenters hammer,(Claw Hammer). The part that I uses to help the Khuk about 14 or 15 inches long. That large end of the pick handle does a right fine job and does not mar the Khuk at all.:)
 
Yes, that works.

I use a baton on my light udhaipur when splitting firewood for the campfire. The knife is too light for heavy chopping, but it can split wood well with the baton.

That old village knife has held up well with repeated blows from the baton.
 
I can't remember where but somewhere I saw a khukuri that had been pounded on to help it get thru whatever they were cutting with it so much the spine was mushroomed -- ugly and deformed so much you couldn't get it into a scabbard but it was still doing the job.
 
I think Cliff Stamp mentioned that effect. My memories bad..he may have used a hammer type instrument.


munk.
 
basically, baton use involves the primative concept of "Hit it with something hard."

French bâton, from Old French baston, stick, from Vulgar Latin *bastō, *bastōn-.]

Since I do not have a heavy or large khukuri, when the blade wedges in firewood, for example, I take another piece of wood and smack the spine of the knife to drive it through. I have to use the weight of the stick, or baton, to finish what a heavier tool might be able to do by virtue of its own weight and cutting ability.

Perhaps the softness of the spine temper allows the impact to be absorbed a bit without fracturing the tempered blade's hardness.

I suspect some Cantina members have cut down large limbs or even trees with smaller sized khuks, using a baton to cut both into the wood,and to lever the blade out.

For me, it is a way of utilizing the edge of the khuk, without having to carry the weight of one which might be considered more suitable for the size of the task. In effect, I'm picking up an axe handle at the site, rather than lugging it along. Or perhaps...making the blade heavier with my blows.

Further, the khuks lend themselves to this more than a hatchet, in that they have a longer surface to hit upon, as opposed to the hammer back of a camp hatchet for instance. The blades extend beyond the wood giving a good target, while you hold the handle in place.


Kis



:rolleyes:



We're all in this together.
 
kismet,

There's some discussion of baton use scattered throughout this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203639&highlight=baton

Nutshell version (MY nutshell--those of others may be different!)

Blade edge should be contact with wood at COP and baton should strike spine at COP. Otherwise, intense vibrations can result leading to eventual tang or handle failure. If vibrations are not minimized, this practice slides from the "severe use" catagory to the "abuse" catagory.

I monitor vibrations by holding the khuk's handle fairly tightly. If the blade slides through the wood away from the COP, I either extract it and re-align, or lightly tap the spine to find the best place to strike with the baton. It won't be the COP if the blade is not clamped at the COP.

I've had one tang that failed right before the buttcap-now I'm very careful to minimize vibrations. That tang had been roughly ground down in size at that point, so there was a weak spot for a fracture to start. But I think that the tang broke at this wierd place demonstrates that the vibrations can be VERY destructive!
 
Great information and thankyou. I have a 21.2 ounce 19 inch Chitlangi that chops better than I would have initially thought (considering its weight compared to other khukuries I own). For splitting firewood I would normally use my 28.7 ounce 16.5 inch Chiruwa AK. But if I have to walk a considerable distance, the lightweight Chitlangi is my favourite to carry. Not that I would use a baton regularly with the Chitlangi, but from the information you have given me I can see that Chitlangi's usefulness can be extended beyond what I considered possible - provided I am careful.:)
 
Center of Percussion!!! A HAH!!! couldn't figure that out for the life of me.

From a post by Ferrous Wheel:

"Handle vibration is a product of not striking with the Center of Percussion (COP). Therefore, if a Kami tests the blade by striking the COP (which he will, because he know this is the "sweet spot"), he will not notice any problems. Then the blade gets shipped to someone who may not know where the COP is on the blade. They repeatedly use the khuk, say, without hitting with the COP, and note vibrations in the handle, vibrations that could shake a blade from its fittings.

You can, through experimentation, find the sweet spot for any object that you swing at the target. The COP is exactly opposite from the Point of Balance, or POB. Thus, if the POB is 4 inches from the butt of the khuk, then the COP is about 4 inches from the point of the khuk.

With your spine striking technique, go along the back of the spine, striking all along it. when you find the spot where the vibrations are the least noticeable, you have found the COP.

Sir Richard Burton's Book of the Sword discusses these and other principles associated with blade physics.

--Keith "

Glenn: These learned gentlemen are undoubtedly correct, however, I just SWAT the sucker!

We're all in this together.

Kis




:rolleyes:
 
Glenn,

I too have a 19" chitlangi. Awesome blade that outperforms expectations based on size and weight.
The balance and feel is phenominal.

I feel that if baton work creates vibrations that one would not accept in chopping, that one is asking for trouble. If in baton work, you grasp the handle as though chopping, and the vibration/shock transfer is more than you would find acceptable when chopping you are in the danger zone. After all these knives were made to chop, and missing the feedback that would prevent entering the abuse zone because you don't have to grasp the handle during baton work can lead to a situation where you are really stressing the knife beyond what is needed to get the job done.

I was astonished by the shock/vibrations that can occur when one is not careful. It will, of course depend upon the properties of each knife.

I think the rule is to maintain the contact and feel for the knife no matter what you are doing with it. You don't get the empathic charge when you pick up a wedge that you do when you pick up a khuk. As others have said, let the khuk teach you. It can't if you don't keep in contact. You can't know what is happening without data.

End of metaphysical rant.
:)
 
Bill,

The kamis don't need a physics book because they have never lost contact with their tools.

For those of us in the West, who ignore such things, the Tacoma Narrows bridge reveals the damage harmonic vibrations can wreak on the most massive man-made structures.

Intuitive or scientific knowledge is very important when pushing anything to the limits. Old-fashioned empirical, "gut feel", traditional knowledge is too often ignored nowadays. Perhaps one day we will give proper respect to the things learned through generations that we have forgotten/ignored. "Common sense" is rare now, even rarer are those who can who can move between both ways of perception.

I lied--the rant continues! ;)
 
Glenn:

So there you have it, precautionary statements by experts, insightful observation by practical/spiritual experienced users, and my own:"Hit it with a stick."

I have a short khuk, so the vibrations (physical ones, not spiritual ones) may not play as big a role as in a longer one. Also, if it doesn't feel right, generally, I stop doing it. But I NEVER let go of the khuk when I'm hitting, so I am practically and spiritually in touch with it at each bash.


Be safe, be as wise as you can be, and enjoy.


Kis
:rolleyes:


We're all in this together
 
traditional knowledge is too often ignored nowadays. Perhaps one day we will give proper respect to the things learned through generations that we have forgotten/ignored. "Common sense" is rare now, even rarer are those who can who can move between both ways of perception. >>> firkin

I've know many engineers who can and many more who can't. But that's always been true of people..now here's some real "flame bait" for you all, regarding common sense being ignored: does it make sense to put physically weaker humans on the front combat lines? (out of a intellectual/cultural belief in 'equality' for women that does not meet reality) Would you use a 13" Khukuri to chop a large pine if you had an 18"AK avalible? It doesn't mean one is better at all things, just some specific tasks. How about using the Swiss army knife to chop down the tree?


Well, my rant is over, go ahead and blast me if anyone feels like it.
munk
 
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