Bearing System Smoothness

7

7MWoQ16

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Jul 7, 2015
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I have had 2 knives in the past with bearing systems in the pivot, specifically IKBS, and both, one $550 and the other $100, had opening action that didn't feel near as smooth as my other knives with washers. As I opened them, I could feel the balls rolling, and it felt almost scratchy and rough. The $100 knife was a Boker Kwaiken and the $550 one was a George Muller LL SS from Knifecenter. The Muller certainly had very little friction, but I prefer to have smoothness over minimal friction. Do you know if these to were simply poorly done? Is it common with IKBS, but no other systems? Or are all bearing systems like this? Share any info about specific knives, companies, and/or bearing systems about smoothness if you can. Thanks.
 
I've had a few knives with bearing systems. Im not a huge fan of IKBS though. I dont like non-caged bearings. Knives like the CRKT Ripple or Boker Kwaiken (Two amazing knives) are both on IKBS, which means the balls are free inside the pivot. I feel like more dirt, lint, debris, etc can get inside more easily which gives it that "scratchy" feeling. Also when dissasembling them, the balls can fall out and you can lose them. But knives like the ZT801 and even into midtechs like the Chavez Redencion 228 have Caged bearing systems, which IMHO are cleaner, easier to maintain, and smoother.
 
Thanks, I figured it could just be the particular IKBS system. Does anyone know how smooth specifically STBS is?
 
From my experience, bearings can be faster but not necessarily smoother than flat washers. The effect is usually only noticeable when you look for it. I can't tell the difference between different bearing systems. Bearing systems are harder to mess up though. That's why it's funny when people try to show how fast a knife can open with a bearing system. A cheap Chinese made knife with a bearing system can be opened just as fast as any custom.
 
It just seems like it could go either way, because I have heard people on youtube like terafanatic mentioning how they are so surprised when a knife on washers is as smooth as a bearing system knife. He used the word smooth, too, not fast. I have a Tighe Coon coming in, and I just seriously hope its action comes to my standards.
 
The illusion of "smoothness" has more to do with the pressure imposed by the lockbar, rather than the pivot system. In other words, a well designed pivot will be smooth regardless of having washers or bearings. For example, take almost any knife and release the tension on the lockbar (assuming it's frame/liner lock); 9/10 times the blade will swing freely.

If a pivot system feels stiff, I could be a strong lockbar, or it could also be a over-tightened pivot screw, or even sloppy tolerances. Many exceptions though. If a pivot system feels gritty, it could be dirty, or final fit & finish was not executed properly.
 
Both of my ball bearing knives I have had seemed to have normal lock bar tension, but one of them had a weird pivot pin that I couldn't adjust. I feel like they either could have been dirty, had sloppy tolerances, and/or just had bad fit and finish. From some videos specifically about bearing systems, caged ones seem to do a little better, and well-done ones seem far superior to washers. Hopefully my Tighe Coon fits into that category.
 
I've noticed I could feel the bearings on some of my knives as well. I'd give them a good rinse under water, blow them out and they were good to go.
 
Sounds like an easy fix for dirty bearings. I wonder if the knives came like that. Personally, I don't like to mess around with knives in the $500 range too much because I mostly have cheaper knives and not much experience. Sounds like caged bearings are good for keeping the bearings clean.
 
I believe the big advantage with bearings is for manufacturers, not users. If you want a really smooth washer pivot the tolerances have to be very high, and the pivot tension needs to stay consistent. With bearings it's much easier to get a pretty darn smooth feeling knife even with poor tolerances and you can crank the pivot way down and still have it move pretty easy with most designs. Bearings also lend themselves better to flippers at lower tolerances as well, which are all the rage these days. Most bearings in my experience get crapped up a lot faster than my washer knives and require cleaning, however I do a lot of field work in the desert. I've learned over time to just leave the bearing knives home on field days.

If I took all of my bearing knives, on average they are probably smoother than all of my washer knives, but my smoothest openers are still washers. To me many of the bearing knives have a "vibration" to them when opening almost like the bearings are indexing, not to mention more than a couple squeak when opening or closing and that's super annoying, regardless of pivot tension or lube. I also prefer some resistance to the blade for non-flipper knives, and that's almost impossible to do with bearings.
 
7MWoQ16 said:
I have had 2 knives in the past with bearing systems in the pivot, specifically IKBS, and both, one $550 and the other $100, had opening action that didn't feel near as smooth as my other knives with washers. As I opened them, I could feel the balls rolling, and it felt almost scratchy and rough. The $100 knife was a Boker Kwaiken and the $550 one was a George Muller LL SS from Knifecenter. The Muller certainly had very little friction, but I prefer to have smoothness over minimal friction. Do you know if these to were simply poorly done? Is it common with IKBS, but no other systems? Or are all bearing systems like this? Share any info about specific knives, companies, and/or bearing systems about smoothness if you can. Thanks.
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Honestly its pretty difficult to get a feel for how smooth a pivot is opening and closing a knife. 90% of what you are feeling is the detent ball gliding on the blade. That feeling can vary greatly depending on how the detent was set up as well as the finish of the blade. The only real way to compare the feel of the bearing systems is to lodge the lock open so it has no impact on blade movement. And even then the same amount of lubricant as well as type should be used. My feeling is you were noticing the difference in detents. And blues is correct lockbar pressure has a huge impact. Heck even the thickness of the lockbar cutout has a effect.

MattyLav said:
I've had a few knives with bearing systems. Im not a huge fan of IKBS though. I dont like non-caged bearings. Knives like the CRKT Ripple or Boker Kwaiken (Two amazing knives) are both on IKBS, which means the balls are free inside the pivot. I feel like more dirt, lint, debris, etc can get inside more easily which gives it that "scratchy" feeling. Also when dissasembling them, the balls can fall out and you can lose them. But knives like the ZT801 and even into midtechs like the Chavez Redencion 228 have Caged bearing systems, which IMHO are cleaner, easier to maintain, and smoother.
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Most ikbs production folders use a caged bearing even when they say ikbs. Early crkt knives with ikbs had loose bearings but i think they switched to cages with the release of the swindle.
 
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ToddM said:
I believe the big advantage with bearings is for manufacturers, not users. If you want a really smooth washer pivot the tolerances have to be very high, and the pivot tension needs to stay consistent. With bearings it's much easier to get a pretty darn smooth feeling knife even with poor tolerances and you can crank the pivot way down and still have it move pretty easy with most designs. Bearings also lend themselves better to flippers at lower tolerances as well, which are all the rage these days. Most bearings in my experience get crapped up a lot faster than my washer knives and require cleaning, however I do a lot of field work in the desert. I've learned over time to just leave the bearing knives home on field days.

If I took all of my bearing knives, on average they are probably smoother than all of my washer knives, but my smoothest openers are still washers. To me many of the bearing knives have a "vibration" to them when opening almost like the bearings are indexing, not to mention more than a couple squeak when opening or closing and that's super annoying, regardless of pivot tension or lube. I also prefer some resistance to the blade for non-flipper knives, and that's almost impossible to do with bearings.
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I cant say i agree. If a bearing pocket is cut wrong even by a small margin you will get serious binding and the pivot will need to be backed off.mmany times to the point of blade play. With washers you simply need flat mating surfaces which dont need to be cut and are simply a product of how the knife is made. Both knives take care when making. And i personally feel bearings are the more complicated process. And that to me is why some makers dont like them. They simply feel the juice isnt worth the squeeze. And the resistance on the blade is just as easy to get with either design. That resistance is in the detent combined with lockbar pressure, not the bearing pivot. The only real reason you see guillotine action with flippers is because it is a trait prefered by many flipper owners and not because it cant be done differently.
 
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7MWoQ16 said:
Thanks, I figured it could just be the particular IKBS system. Does anyone know how smooth specifically STBS is?
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I had a Brian Tighe Rod mini with STBS it was very smooth. No gritty feel like I've had with some.

I've had had knives with washers that were smoother/and or opened as faster than bearings, and vice versa.

I got into all the flipper and bearings hype for a while. Truthfully, I now mostly carry my Gayle Bradley, TSF Beast, and Manix 2 XHP.
 
7MWoQ16 said:
Thanks, I figured it could just be the particular IKBS system. Does anyone know how smooth specifically STBS is?
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Yes. I assume you're referring to Brian Tighe's Sealed Thrust Bearing System (STBS) as found in his customs and those of a few other makers including Rod Olson. If you are, it's like buttah! :thumbup:
 
I got a caged bearing Brous, and a Thorburn IKBS. Both are smooth, but there is absolutely no comparison as to which is MORE.
Andre is a master with IKBS.

So it all depends on WHO makes the knife. Not WHAT is used for a pivot system.
 
Thanks to those suggesting lock bar problems and also to those for commenting specifically to questions about STBS. I'm getting the feeling that overall, as long as the lock and bearings are done correctly, ball bearing systems have more potential to be smoother and certainly have less friction.
 
I kind of figured it was about being done right, it just seemed like IKBS wasn't doing as well in general, though I have heard of many smooth knives that use it.
 
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