Beautiful Work...Or, Highway Robbery...

Megalobyte

Megalobyte

Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
2,761
In my research, i have come to believe that one need not spend many thousands of dollars on a custom knife to own a knife of truly exceptional quality. I have found many knives in the $400-$1000 range that offer superb, truly flawless fit and finish, the finest, rarest materials, excellent design and aesthetics, and, i have seen many knives that cost $3,000 or even more that have little if any justification for their lofty pricetags. I do believe that there are some exceptional values out there to be found, and that one can buy a carefully chosen knife for under $1,000 that is comparable to knives costing many times its price, unless of course the pricey knife is laden with precious gems, gold, or something like that, which will obviously justify a higher than normal price.

So, my question is, do you think that it is possible to get a custom knife for under $1,000 that is truly comparable in quality (fit, finish, materials, design) to a typical knife costing 3-5 times as much? Do you only get what you pay for, or are there some exceptional values to be had?

PS. To see a $5000 knife that looks like it should cost about $100 follow this link... http://www.levineknives.com/images/RonLake17.jpg

If you want to see my NOT FOR SALE Mel Pardue folder, which cost well UNDER $1,000, go to my gallery page at: http://www.thefossilgallery.com/Knives.htm (Its the 2nd one from the top). The knife is FLAWLESS in fit and finish, possessing a beautiful design, loaded with precious materials, what more could you want? What more would you really get by spending 5 times that much, can fit and finsh exceed perfection, of course not. The premium blue bark mammoth ivory is superb, with great aging lines and several vivid blue patches, mostly on the unshown side, the black pearl stud inlay couldnt be more colorful or more premium but, in any case, how can you really do better than perfection, does spending 3-5 times as much really create a better knife, more aesthetic? Well, obviously i dont think so, and i maintain that if you look hard enough, you WILL find knives for under $1,000 that are every bit as good and well made as their super-expensive counterparts. Thats not to say that a $3000 knife cant be a great knife, im just saying that if you look hard enough, ill bet you can find one of comparable quality nearer to $1,000. Flame away! :)
 
have you ever handled a Lake folder? saying it should sell for $100 tells me you dont know much about custom folders or makers who have made a difference in the knife world. is kinda like the difference in comparing a volkswagen beetle to a
Lamborghini Diablo. If you only look at material cost and fit and finish, then buy the cheaper stuff if its what you want.
In a Lake knife you arent only buying fit, finish and materials, you're buying part of a legend in handmade knives. like a faberge' egg, there just aint 50,000 of them out there. but it seems you dont understand this.
 
my new Camillus EDC in 154 CM...but then again, it only cost me $31...

Nice finish, solid lock-up, comfortable to carry, and razor sharp to boot...

Mel

(And thanks for fishing me out of the 'Lake' Tim...lol) ;)
 
Even if the fit and finish and materials are as good as you can get, there is a good chance that most of the $1000.00 folders you will find being made right now are going to be worth less than $1000.00 in a few years. That Ron Lake folder is going to be worth $6000.00 or $7000.00 by that time. Ron Lake earned his reputation and his are great knives. That knife sure doesn't look like any $100.00 folder I have ever seen.

I do agree that there are knives that offer tremendous value and that there are others that are over priced. You can definitely find $1000.00 knives that are better than some costing twice as much or more. That will be the exception though and will not happen often.
 
I realize that certain makers have a long standing rep, and thus have great resale value. I was not speaking to the issue of resale value, nor was i speaking of names and reputations, i was saying that knives can be had for around $1,000 that rival, in terms of fit, finish and quality materials, much pricier customs.

For a time, i sold high-end, aesthetic mineral specimens. Many ran into thousands of dollars. The main reason for collecting them is their beauty and aesthetics, theyre like little pieces of natural art. There are 2 main localities that produce the electric blue mineral Azurite. One is Tsumeb Namibia, the other is Tuossit Morocco. Tsumeb was the first locality to produce high quality specimens, and is thus considered the classic locality, where it all began. A "reputation" if you will, a name. Later, when Toussit began producing, many of its specimens easily rivaled, often exceeded the quality of Tsumeb in terms of color, clarity and overall aesthetics, analogous to fit and finish on a knife. But dealers always charge a premium price for the coveted Tsumeb specimens because of the name, when in fact, you can get a better specimen from Morocco for a lot less money. To me, and this is just me, i want the best specimen, i dont care a whole lot about a name, especially when i will be paying dearly for it. Yes, resale value is a consideration, but i dont buy knives to sell them, i want the finest quality without the inflated prices of many pricey customs. OK, maybe i chose a bad example, and when i said "$100", it was obviously to make a point. But i stand by what i said, that in terms of fit, finish and materials, there are some thousand dollar knives that do rival the much more expensive knives, and, i still think that Lake knife looks unimpressive, at least in the picture. It reminds me of a $200 William Henry, for about $5,000 more. Tell me what that knife has, other than a name and resale value that a really fine, flawless, smooth as silk $1,000 folder doesnt have? Aside from the name, how is it better, and how do you justify the 500% premium?
 
Originally posted by Megalobyte
Aside from the name, how is it better, and how do you justify the 500% premium?
Click to expand...

Ummm, how do you justify the price of a Picasso over a $5 painting?? Does one use better quality paint or canvas? I think when the price gets to a certain level, you can no longer compare based on materials and workmanship...factors such as design, exclusivity, artistry etc. ("intangibles") come into play...I'm willing to bet that a Lake owner is 5 times as happy with their knife than they would be with a more common $1000 folder.

RL
 
I don't think that you can compare a Lake folder to a Pardue. They make different types knives. It's like the difference between a Rolex and a timex. One is mass produced and can be owned by anyone. One is a status symbol, engineered and manufactured with tight tolerances and owned by selected indviduals. Yes when you come down to it they are both watches, but one will last your lifetime, the other will last about 2 years.

I think that you can sum it up best by looking at a Loveless drop point hunter. It is probally the most copied design out there. You can get one from any number of companies and makers, but when you buy a Loveless your paying for the name and the reputation of the maker. You are paying for the makers knowlege and quality of craftsmanship. Loveless makes his basic knives out of 154cm or ATS-34, with a nickel silver guard and green canvas micarta scales. Total for materials about $30 bucks. So why do they sell for $1000+ ? It is the name and the hope that the knife will appreciate in value. Loveless is an icon, and in Japan almost God like! When he goes to a bar for a beer and a cigar they put the glass and ashtray on a shelf behind the bar under a glass dome like a shrine when he leaves!

Basically it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and how much that is is up to you. I'm too poor to buy cheap.
 
OK. Lets use the watch analogy. This is another area where i believe my assertion holds true. Yes, everybody knows the name Rolex, and, no doubt, Rolex makes a fine watch. But, i submit that there are other makers who make a watch with comparable materials, fit, finish and design/style to the Rolex for significantly less money. Baume and Mercier comes to mind as offering watches of Rolex quality and equally impressive style, but without the name recognition and status of Rolex, and thus, with a lower price tag. Their new Capeland S series, in my opinion, is every bit is attractive as a Submariner, actually i believe it is far nicer to look at, it has a beautifully made mvt, the fit, finish and materials are as good as it gets, true perfection. So, assuming for the sake of argument that the B&M's quality is comparable to the much more expensive Rolex, why should i pay 2 or 3 times as much for the Sub? Resale value? Status symbol? I dont buy watches, or knives for that matter to sell, i buy them to keep and appreciate, so resale value doesnt matter that much to me, and, more importanly, im not looking for a status symbol, only quality, and you can get that quality without spending a fortune, whether it be knives or watches. You speak of intangables, well, in this example, the intangable is simply the Rolex name, and i dont see why i should pay so dearly for it when there are indeed watches of similar quality at half the price. Are you honestly going to tell me that there arent a lot of overpriced customs out there and some extremely nice relatively affordable ones? You all seem to take exception to my example of the Lake knife, fine, take that out of the equation, substitue a pricey custom from a maker without the highly touted name/rep of Lake, what i said remains true, there are $1,000 knives out there that, intangables aside, in terms of quality only, compete very favorably with many of their pricier competition. If ultimately quality is what you seek, and not status or a name, so called "intangables", you dont have to spend $5000 to get it, for a watch or a knife.
 
I think we should stick to comparing the works of artists, not manufactured goods.

A Ron Lake or Bill Moran Knife is like a Picasso or Monet Painting not just because of the quality of the work, but because of the influence the artist has had on the field. A Ron Lake Interframe Folder is part of knife making history, and the materials involved have little to do with the price it will garner.
 
There's really no sense in arguing unless Megalobyte has seen a Ron Lake folder. Early on in my interest in knives (not that long ago) all I had to base my analysis on was pictures over the internet. At my first big show I met Ron Lake and got to handle a $3500 interframe folder. It looked just like the pictures, but when you talk to the man and hold the knife and inspect all the intricacies you begin to understand why this knife is worth what he's asking.

If you are going to be serious about custom knives, I highly encourage you to check out a custom knife show and talk to various makers. You just missed out on the Guild show which was a couple weeks ago in Orlando. You might consider flying west for one of the upcoming California shows. Lots of great knives and makers to further your education.

~Mitch
 
Megadude.You need to put a Lake into your hands and gaze upon it.
It is spiritual.;) Like the first time I gazed upon a Moran. Or the statue of David.
Randy
 
OK, if all you are talking about is the quality of a knife, how it works and how well it is made, then why bother with all the fancier materials on a knife. Those $1000.00 knives you are talking about do not work any better because they have damascus blades and blue mammoth handles. If all you are interested in is getting the best knife for the least amount of money, then you should look at knives that use standard materials. A knife that costs $1000.00 and has a damascus blade, damascus bolster, a jewel for a thumb stud and blue mammoth handle could be made for half the price or less with standard material and be just as good a knife. It seems you are willing to pay for the increased price of materials, but not for the reputation of the man who makes the knife.

Once again I will say that I agree with you. There are knives available that are better than some others that cost much more. There are some knives that have nicer grinds, better fit and finish and tighter tolerances than ones that cost more. Though you will occasionally find knives like this being offered, it is my experience that when two similar knives, using similar materials are being sold, usually the more expensive one is also the better built one.
 
Allright, i will be happy to end this email with the little "foot in mouth" smiley icon, but, before i do, let me just say something.

When i first entered the world of custom knives, i was shocked at the prices, it was hard to believe that a knife could cost so much. But, not shocked enough to not want one, or 2, or 10. But, i was very intimidated by the very high prices and i began to feel like if i wanted a beautifully made knife, with an aesthetic design, perfect fit and finish, with rare material selection, i would have to shell out thousands of dollars, and honestly, i simply cant afford to do that. Then i discovered that if you really look, you can find knives with all of the above mentioned qualities for well under $1,000, and the motivation for my original post was to let others know that they CAN find knives of superior quality, with precious materials, that, name and rep aside, do rival many of the more expensive ones, for an affordable sum. I didnt want other newbies to lose out on the satisfaction of owing one of these marvels of craftsmanship and beauty simply because they, as i did initially, believe its out of their reach. So, i guess i chose the wrong high-dollar custom to illustrate my point, but substitute a $3-$5000 overpriced custom for the lake, and i think my point holds true. I really do feel there are some exceptionally well made knives for under $1,000 that rival, in quality, many of the much more expensive examples. OK, im done. So, here it comes... :footinmou :footinmou
 
Unlike most of my friends, i can admit when im wrong, even in a public forum. After reading your replies, i did some searching for Lake knives on the net, and wow, i found a few with incredible workmanship. You see, i DO have the capacity to appreciate quality, and the Lake knives i just saw are clearly of exceptional quality, and im sure even moreso in person. I still think that you can find a beautifully made knife for under $1,000, but i do now have a sense of how wrong i was to use Lake as my example, his work IS phenomenal, and i cant wait to actually examine one in person. If you want to see the best 2 pictures i found, the first is:

http://www.lindsayengraving.com/lake/photos/lake06a copya1x1.jpg

The second, and IMO more impressive picture is at:

http://www.lindsayengraving.com/lake/photos/lake06a copyb1x1.jpg

Heres one more picture i just found:

http://www.bergomi.com/coll/foto/coll/126.jpg

So, i should have done this PRIOR to making my, now famous "$100" statement. What can i say, i was wrong to say it, and i have learned something new, which i guess is what the forums are all about. :footinmou :footinmou :footinmou :)
 
I had the pleasure of holding a Ron Lake folder once, and if I had lots of money, I would buy as many as I could find. They are like the Monet of the knife world.

nuff said............Ira
 
In some ways I understand what Megalobyte was trying to say
originally. In the distant past, I looked at a Monet painting,
and thought, hell I could do that. There are a lot of people that can do this. Well, I am a lot older and maybe a little wiser now, but this was part of my education. There are BIG BONUS points for being first, the inovator, the first to have this vision. The very first to create it this way. Ron Lake, Bill Moran, Bob Loveless, these are not just guys that were the first to make it that way, but they also had the quality. This can sometimes be debated with some kinds of art, but knives, I think are different. We must pay, and rightly so, for this level of art and quality.
 
Not that I want to beat a dead horse....


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LakeStagInterframeb.jpg



RonLake16.jpg



RL
 
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