Been asked to make a large dagger....need advice

Matt Shade

Matt Shade

Joined
Nov 24, 1999
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Well this knifemaking as a part time business thing isn't going too bad. I've been able to get rid of pretty much anything I make without too much trouble. I'm not making any money, but I'm not losing it any more :D (unless you count the new tools I've bought/built :footinmou )

Anyhow, I've been asked by a guy that works with my brother to make a large dagger. He was originally talking sword, but I think I've got him talked down to a 10" or less blade :eek:
Its to be a collector/fantasy peice as far as I know. His sons are always talking about how cool the knife in a certain movie is, or how cool one they saw in a shop on vacation was, so he's looking for something similar to a sword/dagger from "The Lord of The Rings"
I've never seen the movie, but with a little research I beleive he's talking about the "Sting's Sword" , I'll attach a pic.

Personally, since I've never done a blade this big before I'd like to go with O1 since its a little easier to work with. I think 440C would be a better choice maintenance wise though, unless you guys think a coat of rennaisance wax will hold up to a lot of fondling and not necessarily getting wiped down regularly..... Any thoughts on this?

He's going to make some drawings and get back to me. He didn't think it would be double edged, but I'm kind of expecting to have to learn the traditional dagger grind that makes everybody swear so much. So I need to know what size stock is best to start from. Its strictly stock removal at this point, with an 8" hollow grind. I'm thinking I'm going to have to go with 1/4", but I've never done it before. What thickness would you guys go with?

Also, I'm anticipating either wood, bone, or combination of the two for the handle. But just in case....is there a special kind of wire you use for the wire wrap handles? Do you solder the starting end to the tang?

Thanks for any advice. I'm kind of excited about this, I haven't tried diving in over my head with anything in a while which can be kind of fun, and seems to be when I do some of my best work :)
 
Forgot the pic of the sword :o

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The only real concern I'd have is grinding a long blade on 8". I don't think you'll be able to bring the grind to the center of such a big blade with an 8" wheel. So how about flat grinding or convex grinding it? That would be my recommendation anyway, others may have a better idea.

As to the wire wrap, it's no secret. You'll wrap around a wood core, drill a hole in one end and fix the wire in it with a toothpick wedge; wrap real tight and do the same at the other end. The real trick of wire wrapped handles is soldering the thin shim stock that covers the wrap ends. (I didn't do this; I butted the wire up against a solid ferrule, but that's not optimum.)

Twisting the wire will work harden it so you'll want to anneal before wrapping. Twist the wire in a drill - I chucked an eyebolt in the drill, nailed the loose ends of the wire to a tree and went to town. Wrap it tight - that looks better.

Good luck! This sounds like a fun project.
 
Do you have the book "The Complete Bladesmith" By Jim H
(I cant spell his name so im not going to even try) It shows you how to do wire wrap's and has All kinds of other info as well its good book and is worth the 30 some odd bucks you will pay for it
 
Thanks for the advice so far guys, much appreciated.

I was going with an 8" hollow grind because I have 2 8" benchgrinders that I normally use (one high speed for roughing, one slow speed for finishing) and thats what I'm comfortable on. I do have a 4X36, although I cringe at the thought of using it (ITS SO SLOW!)I could hijack my dad's 6" grinder for a while, but it will need new wheels....Or were you implying that a bigger wheel would be better?.....hmmmm gonna have to think about this one.


I'll have to look into that book. I believe I've seen it recommended several times before :)
Do you always twist the wire before you wrap? What gauge would be best for that? I have about 5 lbs of stainless (I think, have to test)thats about the right size for a straight wrap. I can see where twisting it would give it a neat look and texture.

Thanks again for the advice, I need it badly and will be bugging you with more questions when I get some drawings from the guy, if not sooner :D
 
Matt, how wide is the blade gonna be? An 8" wheel should work if the blade isn't inordinately wide. I have done some pretty high grinds using an 8" on 3/16" stock.
 
Since its going to be kind of scaled down from the sword, I'm figuring maybe 1.5" wide at the hilt. Maybe 2" wide but I doubt it.
I can do a full hollow grind on a 1" wide blade out of 1/8" stock without any trouble, so I kindof figured that a double grind on a 1.5" blade would be ok :confused:
 
Thanks
I started a small boot knife/dagger today to get a feel for this. 3" blade. I'm gonna go try and figure this grind out now :eek: :D
 
Well.....its sucks....very very much....buts its in its first cycle tempering.

I thought I did a good job on my first grind like this. I had the center line pretty straight and it was lined up relatively well from one side to the other. I ground it too thin trying to get it that way though, I never can make myself just stop and leave it for after HT.
So I heated it up and quenched it (440C by the way) and it came out nice and straight, but didn't seem quite as hard by the gaurd as out at the tip, so I heated it up and quenched again. The damn thing came out looking like an ugly spoon! :eek: I straightened it as much as I dared, and was about to just give up and temper it when I decided, it was worth another try since it was straight the first time. So I heat it, straighten it, heat it and quench it. Now it just warped crazy all over the place :barf:
Straightened it as much as possible, and I think I learned my lesson.

I guess this one will be a throwing knife since there isn't much use putting a handle on it :D
 
I started out grinding daggers after getting totally hooked on making a damascus dagger from whatching Dr. H's video and reading his books.

I practiced with plain old junk yard flat stock and probably burned through 10 dagger blades trying to get the feel. It was my first time grinding a knife too.

What I found out that helped was to just rough grind in the bevels with a 40 grit belt until the edeg was about 1/16 thick or more. Probably thicker than that, and the only part where the grind lines met in the center was at the tip of the blade.

Then I would heat treat and temper and go back to the grinder and grind the hardend knife. It makes everything go slower, so I had more control.

Also the thick edges kept the warping down to a minimum. Plus, do a light pass with the grinder on the profile before heat treat so that the grind marks on the edge and ricasso are running the length of the blade and not perpendicular to the edge. Dr. H mentioned that in the video and it is supposed to help stop warping.

The area I still have trouble with is the plunge cuts being even. It is bad enough on a single edge to keep them even (for me anyway) but on a dagger you have double the trouble.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks
Thats always been my problem, I don't like to quit grinding until it looks perfect, and then its too daggoned thin and heat treating it is a pain.
I just did a little bit of a finish grind on this one,and it ground so much better. It looks really good until you turn it sideways ;) Not going to mess with a handle on it now, but I may try another one tommorrow. Don't have any orders to finish before christmas so I can play for a little while.
 
This may not be possible or practical,coming from a guy that does not do his own HT, but I know about the warping of some tool steels during the process. Is it possible to place the to be treated blade between a couple of steel blanks with flip up toggle bolts to lock in place, and then just heat the whole dang thing? In other words, a HT jig to keep the blade straight? The knife you are making is like a beauty Dave Larsen handed me one day to examine. Ol' Dave did a wonderfull job, and the wire wrap,mirror finish, grinding of the O1 blade was perfect.You need advice on making such a knife,Dave knows!
 
Matt, often I use a 5" absolute POS bench grinder with the wheels worn down to about 4" to hog off metal. Then I clean it up on the 4X36. You might think about doing it that way.

And you're right - the 4X36 takes freakin' forever! Why do you think I started forging? More time at the hammer means less time at the grinder.
 
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