Before you sell another knife...Think about this!

R

RobertHankins

Joined
Jun 10, 2001
Messages
1,385
Driving around stuck in traffic the other day and started thinking about all of the skills and equipment it takes to make a knife. Especially a forged blade:p
Then I started thinking about what "We" (Collectively) as makers both new and experienced are charging for those blades.

In one well made knife we could concievably use:
Woodworking, welding, blacksmithing, machine shop, gunsmithing (IE:Bluing Etc), Carving, Jewerly making, and other stuff we learned but take for granted.

Whats the point?
Just think about all of the time, money, Blood sweat and tears that went into just learning those skills before you price out that next Custom knife;)
 
Robert,
My feeling exactly, add up all the Belts, Steel, Handle Materials (Think about all the materials you have stock piled), MISTAKES, now lets talk about equipment. Grinder(s),Milling Machine,lathe,Drill Presses,Disc Sanders,Bandsaws, etc. I have been collecting equipment for at least 15 years, making mistakes along the way. Upgrading equipment whenever possible, I sat down after I read you post and thought, I have easily spent the same amount or more money then it would have cost me to go to college. So the next time someone is hammering me on the price of a knife. I'm Just going to say that the price is the price, you have to pay for my college education! :D :D
 
Hey Robert....

With all that work,,,,
Flipping burgers or Pumping gas doesn't seem all that bad now does it..:)

LOL

ttyle

Eric...
 
Roy and Robert, this is close to the point that I've been spouting from my soapbox for a long time. You are a good example Robert. I've sat here and watched you fuss over details for a long time. You spend a lot of time making a knife (sword) that really deserves the title custom. (No insult to you Roy, I'm just using Robert because I don't think he's been in the business as long as you). You worry about design, balance, steel, heat treating and looks. You put a lot of money in getting equipment that will do the job over the long haul.

Now, lets look at little Jimmy Doe who wanted to make a hunting knife for himself. He ground a blade from some sort of a file or worse bought a blade from a supply house. Made a handle for it and all of a sudden he is a knifesmith. He thinks this is the way to make a living.

All of you go to a knife show and Jimmy is $50.00 cheaper than you and The Bruces or Laurence, Etc.

They all look the same but Jimmy is a little cheaper. There are only 20.7 qualified custom knife customers at the show. Out of them only 5 are willing to buy NOW! 3 of those really know what they are looking for and one will buy from you and Bruce and Roy. The other two will go to Jimmy because he claims to have the same product at a lower price. In other words the least desirable product took a little less than half the sales for not-much-less money. For you Robert, that's bad enough because of the time you spent making a good product. For the makers who depend on the sales for their living it's taking food from their tables.

Worse yet the customers who bought from Jimmy will realize that there is not much difference from their expensive custom and a Buck. This further devalues the market because they will tell their friends who will buy Bucks from now on.

My point in this rant is that the Newbies need to pay their dues and make sure they have a better product before hanging out their shingles. I hear over and over that this is the business I want to be in. Well...it takes many hours and a lot of sweat and money to become a Custom knife maker.
 
I was downtown Toronto last week and parked my car at a meter. That set me thinking..........you know that darn parking meter makes more than I do.

Seriously, a maker who keeps a stock of material and finished product to meet customer demands has made a significant financial commitment to his trade and should keep that in mind in pricing his product. The other quandry facing makers as they become more well known is how to keep on advertising and cover the cost, unfortunately the only way is to raise prices........that is the part that I have a hard time with.
 
Great point Robert!

I think the fact is, these skills have been learned and developed since birth. As you grew up from a toddler, did you have a set of Lincoln Logs, and erector set, Model trains, cars, Hot wheels track, Bicycle, mini-bike, go cart, your first car.....etc. Did you work on the mower, tractor, Mom's washing machine when broken?....and love it!

I think "we" type of guys have always been tinkering with something. You know,.... take it apart just so you can put it back together.

So, I feel that since birth, we been developing and obtain our "shop-skills". And what's great is that we are the special breed! The majority of society does not have our gift...heck, they don't even know which end of a screw driver to use :D .

Sincerely,
Rob
 
Good Topic! My mind goes to lots of issues around this subject, but let me just comment on one.

There are many talented woodworkers who have a hard time selling their work for even the materials cost. Custom woodworking became a basement and garage hobby: More supply then demand. I sometimes wonder if custom knifemaking will end up there.
 
have to chime in with my 2 cents worth because this is one of my favorite subjects – and I guess this is aimed more at the newer makers like myself. A couple months ago. I posted a thread called "learning and making a Living" http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194541
It says a lot about what I have been thinking - regarding being a newbie learning a craft amongst a lot of long time , experienced and talented makers.

I just finished my 7th and 8th knives. I still don't have any conclusive plans on when to start selling. On the practical side, I run a full time business and often my knife making time is after work (often around midnight or so) - so I don't have much time to commit.

On the other hand, threads like this get me thinking. Over the last few months, I've spent a good sum accumulating tools, consumables, metal handle material, etc. My "Christmas list" for equipment at the end of the year is also substantial. I am however, not in a position where I need to recoup those costs. It has though, made me wonder. For example, when I see a nice hunter for $200-$300 and I can relate to just the time and material costs, I wonder how people do make it full time.

Also, as this thread suggests. I often ask – are my efforts and the time I have spent "worthy" enough to be entering (competing) in the selling phase. Well, I have been making things by hand and selling them for over thirty years. My latest efforts are partially made possible by that experience and a five figure investment in shop space and tools over the years. So I figure I have paid some of the "dues". However, that is not first and formost in my mind as I ponder when to sell.

I keep putting off plans to sell because of the realization that I must be one of the most fortunate of the new knifemakers out there because I am having one heck of a good time and NOT selling. A dozen years ago I took a favorite hobby and turned it into a business. Since then my business has blossomed and my time spent in my hobby for enjoyment has dwindled. I know that as soon as I start selling, I will look back wistfully on that time when I was learning. How soon we forget that everything learned is the result of a couple dozen mistakes ( ..or "experiments").

Having been in three different, but somewhat related businesses, each for over a decade has given me the opportunity to observe growth, trends and change. I have ridden good times and bad and have finally learned that nothing is forever. IMHO, How long this apparent "feast" phase of knifemaking will last or what in might change into is a great unknown..... Personally, my advice to all those experienced makers out there is to keep doing what you are doing – and don't bargain away any work. Whatever you do, you do not get paid enough for it. You have a right to be proud of what you do and you are also very fortunate, in both good times and bad, to have such a time honored profession.

To those new makers, newbies, etc..such as myself,…I'll repeat myself again (from pervious posts) – what ever you do, do what feels right – not what you think you "have to do" (like earn money right away)… for as long as is practically possible,

Again, my 2 cents only……

Bob
 
What I think is: usually (USUALLY) the market determines the price. What I mean is that the customer chooses who to buy from.
He chooses so in a "perfect" way, if you listen to modern microeconomic theories. This assumption is necessary to create a theory as objective as possible.

So if Robert makes a knife with a quality of, say, 10 for say 100$ and Jimmy makes a knife of quality 3 for 50$ the customer will choose Robert's knife if at all possible, i.e. if its resources are enough to obtain the best cost/benefit compromise.

If Robert makes a knife with a quality of 10 for 100$ and Jimmy a knife with quality of 5 for 50$ the customer will probably be indifferent on the purchase (it's the case where we have doubts, since an optimum of cost/quality can't be easily perceived).
You see where I'm going?

Why then in real world things doesn't go that way?
Because the market _doesn't_ make "perfect" choices, because knives don't have "Quality 10" and "Quality 3" written on a tag, and distinguishing a real good knife from a so-so one is not very easy for the average John Doe: the market is not educated.
The solution to this problem is educating the market, and this is what knife shows should do in my opinion, over allowing makers to meet and all other marvellous things.
An uneducated market is detrimental both to the customer and the maker.
I'm just starting to make knives, and what I've obtained up to now is some misshaped pieces of steel and a lot of steel dust.
But if I'll ever reach a point wher I can sell what I do I'd like people to appreciate and buy what I sell for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. And I don't mean just paying high bucks for a perfect work, if I'll be capable of such craftsmanship, but in a wider meaning understanding my knives are worth what you pay them for, both in positive and negative.
I don't want somebody buying a knife thinking he's got a superior product at a low cost where in fact I'm selling it at a low cost because I know I couldn't ask more to a knowledgeable person.
It's a matter of honesty towards the customer and towards fellow knifemakers and bladesmiths which charge more for a better work.
But until a wider part of the market is "educated" this would be impossible.
Moreover: how do you think that "name" and reputation affect prices and how much a customer is willing to pay?
Do you think that when a customer spends much more for "name" or reputation he's wasting money, or is the certainty of buying something good an added value to the nude knife value? Is it a benefit worth paying for?
As said I'm not in the knife market as a seller, and as a buyer I've got my ideas on these topics, but is something on which I'd like a professional's point of view.
 
this thread needed to be covered a long time ago. I've been making (partime) for 9 yrs and fulltime almost 3, not near as long as many but longer then some. I've seen a lot of Jimmys and I understand to a point, sure everyone wants to sell their knives and start making some of their investments back, but I made,gave away and tested my knives for 5 yrs. before I started to sell. I try to keep my prices low enough that I can still make a descent wage, and give the working stiff opportunity to buy a high quality knife without spending a months wages, but when you have parttime Jimmys poping up and selling several dollars cheaper it truly does make it harder, and like peter said about the quality of their knives, it can and will turn future buyers away from customs. We as makers need to make the best knives out there and keep our prices close and comparable, or all we'll do is drive the price of a handmade knife down to where no one will be able to make, sell and survive.

I just did a local gun & knife show and I had 2 people approach my table that said to each other."why would anyone spend that kind of money for a knife, you can go to wal-mart and buy a knife for next to nothing and take it back anytime you want to". I looked at both of them and started to explain what it takes- material, equipment and time wise to make a knife and they just looked at me and walked away before I even had a chance.

I also had another man come up and tell me that "my prices were to high,that a friend of his had been making knives in his sparetime for 2 yrs. and his were only about half my price, I asked him what he did for a living and he said he was a auto worker", then he just walked off. All I could think of, was the price of cars and how this moron would be the first to B***H if we the public only had to pay half the price of these car prices today and cut his wages in half, he would still be getting overpaid.

I met and talked to several people that appreciated the time and workmanship that go's into making knives, and received a lot of nice compliments. So make a high quality product, price if fairly but keep the price comparable to other makers prices and we'll all come out ahead.

Sorry for being so long winded. :yawn:

Bill
 
The topper is, after all the toil, all the various skills, all the expense, travel, hotel, etc., etc., ad nauseum, some A-Hole comes up to your table and says, $125.00, GOD ALMIGHTY,I CAN GET ONE LIKE THAT AT WAL MART FOR $5.95. That's when I come close to assault and battery. :mad: :mad: :mad: :barf: :barf:
------------------------------------------------
Edited to add; sorry Bill B., I got so mad when I read the first post in this thread, that I did not read yours all the way thru, otherwise, I would have seen that I duplicated part of your post.:eek:
 
I am an architect, and the world of architecture is perhaps somewhat similar to yours. Why would anybody go to an architect when they can get their house or small office building built by a contractor? (some of you may have asked yourself this very question already;) )

One reason alone = Quality of work

Unfortunately, there is so much mediocre work in the world today, that quality-design is thinning out relatively.

It seems that "everyone thinks they're an architect" these days. If you've ever picked up 2x4 lumber at Home Depot and nailed it together, you're an architect. :rolleyes:

I have found only one solution to this problem = education

You have to educate the client/customer to the point that they can see what you see, but know there's no way they could do it themselves.

Explanation = Let's say you're a custom knifemaker and someone comes to your table and wants to know why your prices are so high, compared to other knives. It's obvious that they are "uneducated" concerning custom knives. Who's responsibility is it to educate them? It is yours. They've been clearly "educated" by someone else's product line and have failed to get the message from yours. You have to educate them about "your" product. You have to have demonstrations, examples, visual aids, etc.

My experience has been that the best marketers have made the best sales, period.

Would you really want someone to buy your knife blindly anyway? They would likely trade it and never appreciate it.

My reason for buying custom-made knives is that they "belong" to a certain level of quality, and that has been clearly demonstrated by the maker, their history/info, and users/buyers.
 
I totally agree with Peter. I have noticed many "new" makers pricing their work what established makers charge. I just don't think a new maker can make a knife as well as an established maker, most things being equal! Just my two cents!
 
I guess we've all run into the customer who doesn't understand the difference between a Buck and a custom knife by a competent maker, or cannot tell the difference between a kit knife and a custom knife. I recently had a guy ask me to make him a knife but his price expectation was that it would be cheaper than a common production knife... I actually got mad and walked off, but that's a common misconception. What's worse, in my opinion there is no way to "educate" someone like this because that would require them to actually use (ie, purchase) a custom knife, which they'll never do.

On the issue of price I may be hurting us all, and I'll think about this carefully. I haven't made all that many knives and the quality of my output leaves something to be desired. Yet I've had no problem whatever selling everything I make. I try to price my work by my own perception of its quality vs. what I expect out of myself. For example, I may consider a current knife if well made a $400 knife but value my workmanship at $250. But I'm an educated seller; I know what a knife should be.

Most of my knives are sold to a single dealer; he has a pretty significant markup and still turns them quickly. What's up with that? Part of it is, I think, there are price levels, like thermoclimes in deep water, that separate customers. I think my knives are just under the price break that keeps some of his customers from buying the better knives. And he has customers who don't buy my work because they know what's possible. (They're the ones that keep me working. :) ) I think this is Alarion's example.

I make about $3 per hour when I'm kicking butt; I've made less than a dollar and as much as $10. I still cut my family a lot of slack on pricing, only because I want them to have a knife I made and they wouldn't otherwise. I try to make sure they get educated along the way, thinking they might have an opportunity to pass some of that along. My wife has become a fantastic, knowledgeable critic; yet she says I should raise my prices. Given all the arguments in this thread, I think I could and will - to a point. I'm not going to rip anyone off, neither will I not-sell my best effort just because it's not yet up to a professional level.

I don't expect to support myself making knives; I do expect a fair price and will hold out for it. Depending on the qualify of workmanship in each knife, which as I hope I indicated is still somewhat variable, I try to get three or four times the cost of materials and supplies, and I keep a close tab on my costs. But I guess I don't really have a good "formula" for pricing my work.

Who has some input on that?

Dave
 
If I was you guys I wouldn't be too worried about idiots not wanting to buy your knives. I know how terrible I'd feel if some drunk yahoo ignoramous used a knife I had made to injure or kill his poor battered wife. (stupid people tend to be stupid across the board in my experience). "Another satisfied Fury/Frost/Crap customer". Next time somebody hits you with the WalMart bit, hit 'em with this.
"My knives were made by a free man in a free country. Most of the stuff at WalMart is made by political prisoners in China. If you wanna support Communism with your money, that's your business. Good day to you sir." Heck just havin a bunch of people around you hearin that last bit a Gun Show would be priceless. Oh, and the warranty thing is only good 1 or 2 times. After that they will say it is a "manufacturer's defect. You need to contact the manufacturer."
 
I usually try to avoid these type of posts--why? because the subject matter usually makes me more angry. No, not at my fellow craftsman, but because these same observations were the ones I heard when I was making custom furniture. I never did go out and try to sell my designs, rather I built furniture for my family (darn good stuff too)-you found no wafer boards in mine! People would come over and view the dining room set and want me to build them something. I took custom orders, built to their specs, and delivered.I thought they wanted quality and craftmanship, but most only wanted the craftmanship at a cheap price! Two of those projects are in my family room today because the pinhead who wanted it saw something else that caught their eye and bought it because it was cheaper. (they have since disposed of that furniture and bought a different style-go figure!)

I've since laid down my carpenter tools (and power equipment). Like many I found that a hobby that turns to profit is no longer as enjoyable as it once was. (remember the simple fun of bass fishing?)I've built knifes over the years and have given most away free. (I still get some of them back to sharpen!). The point is I have reinvested the money I received from selling my woodworking tools into metal working tools over the years. Now my skills may not be as keen as others on this forum, but I'm still working at it!

Now, I build a knife the way I want it and do with it as I please. I have sold a handful of knives after I built them for my tastes not the intended customer.I have even refused to sell a knife to a customer because I didn't think he appreciated the time and effort that went into making it! This way it remains my personal hobby rather than my avocation. Most of us that build part-time would probably call it a damned expensive hobby fraught with equipment, materials, and never ending research. That is the first reason why I can be independent as my family does not rely upon my knifemaking as income producing. This is my choice only (I value my independence).

The vast public will remain uneducated as far as their buying habits are concerned. My wife calls it the "shiny syndrome", they will flit from maker to maker and even the jimmys to get a cool looking knife for pennies. Unfortunately the knife making industry plays to it with cheaper manufacturing costs. I don't think there is an answer.

Thanks for the venting- my two cents worth--Dan
 
I wanted to give a big second to Dan (Pendentive) on the education bit. Part of my education and work is experience is in his field (archtecture). One of the best things that happened to me was when I got out of the drafting room and into the field to sell good (expensive) design. I quickly went to the top in my firm because I understood not only what I was doing, but that in order to survive that first year, I had to "educate" the client.

I haven't done that bit for over a dozen years, but I believe that one of the reasons my present business has prospered is because I have used the same methods. I will always take the time to do my best to educate the customer. I share the nuts and bolts, the practical side, my design philosophy – anything that will get their attention and most are pleased that you are taking the time to do this. Not everyone I try to teach gets "it", but enough have for me to reach the top of my market.

My market is small, but half of my customers are repeat buyers. These are way outnumbered by those who walk by or are satified with shrink wraped Wal-Mart junk. Do I care? Nope. Mediocrity is the mainstream in America today, and handmade goods will run an ever distant second place.

So why do I do these things – and why do I now look at knifemaking? I stick with it because I believe that rendering and executing good design is a noble profession – which pretty much sums up what I want out of the working part of my life.


Bob

http://www.southrivermodelworks.com/
http://www.southrivermodelworks.com/page15a.html
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top