Beginner Damascus question

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kg14701

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May 23, 2021
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I've recently started making knives as a hobby and my latest attempt was a Damascus steel blade out of 1084 and 15N20 . I realize that I failed to get solid welds in a few spots, but my real question is why can't I get any real contrast in my steel layers? I initially tried etching after hand sanding to 400 grit. That attempt came with little to no contrast and lots of visible sanding marks. I resanded up to 1000 grit and then etched again. The finish looks a lot better, but it seems like both steels are etching equally. When I pull the blade out of the ferric chloride, it is all dark, with no difference between the steels. I've tried coffee etching as well, with the same result. Is this a problem with my process? I've also had the thought that the steel bars I order off of Amazon to make my billet aren't actually the alloys that were advertised and there isn't enough difference in the nickel content of two. Thanks in advance for any help or advice!

 
Yes, I hardened the steel by heating in my forge to a bright red/orange and then quenching in oil. Followed that with tempering at 425 for two one hour cycles. All I have to go on as to whether the steels are 1084 and 15N20 is that's what they were billed as on Amazon when I ordered.
 
Order your steel from a well know supplier - Alpha Knife Supply is a good source with reasonable prices. I'd never really consider steels ordered from Amazon. I've read on a 15N20 steel where comments said no way could it be 15N20 since they had the same experience with both alloys being the same after etching. That person said he had lots of experience with etching Damascus and should have known better than order from fleabay or Amazon for steel. You might get good steel depending on supplier, but you never know.

Looking at some of the reviews on Amazon, one 10 pak has a 4.8 star rating with 33 folks giving reviews. Looks like lots of them received free steel for their reviews.
 
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Ken H> said:
Order your steel from a well know supplier - Alpha Knife Supply is a good source with reasonable prices. I'd never really consider steels ordered from Amazon. I've read on a 15N20 steel where comments said no way could it be 15N20 since they had the same experience with both alloys being the same after etching. That person said he had lots of experience with etching Damascus and should have known better than order from fleabay or Amazon for steel. You might get good steel depending on supplier, but you never know.
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Thanks. I'll definitely do that in the future.
 
Taz said:
There was a batch not too long ago from amazon or ebay that was not the steel it was supposed to be. I can't remember the online seller, but there was a thread on this forum IIRC about it. Is your acid diluted fully and decarb ground off the blade after heat treating?

Found the thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/san-mai-etching-question.1916086/#post-21776683
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When you say diluted fully, what does that mean? I used a solution of three parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride for etching. I've read of a several different dilutions though.
And yes, it was completely decarbed after heat treat.
 
Taz, thanks for that link. The pictures of the San mai look exactly like mine after etching -all one color. I went back to look at my Amazon order, and it's a different seller than the one mentioned in the thread you sent, but since I ordered, a review had been posted complaining of the same issue I'm dealing with due to a lack of nickel content. Pretty annoying to have put in the effort of hand hammering a Damascus billet and not get the patterning to show. Even with the flaws in my forge welds I was proud of myself as a first attempt and would have liked the Damascus to show. Lesson learned on using reliable suppliers.

Regarding my next attempt, does anyone have advice on where to find a good walkthrough on hand hammering Damascus? Most of what I've found depends on power equipment that I don't have.
 
Ok, your acid is diluted at that ratio. Some people use it straight out of the bottle and it is stronger, so there is much less contrast in the etching.

Sounds like it is a steel issue.
 
My guess is that you overheated it when forge welding and again when you heat treated it.

The trick to etching two steels that are closer in contrast is to take it to a higher finish going into the etch and using a more diluted etchant for a longer period of time. It should look more like cream soda than root beer.

But I think your problem is more likely to be elevated temperatures when forging and again when austenitizing. Care must be taken to normalize, anneal, harden and temper at the correct temperatures.

Hoss
 
The color of the bars from the supplier mean nothing as to what they will etch like. It is a combination of a surface treatment to prevent rust and the oxides from rolling the bars out.

The steel looks like it etched just fine. The issue you are having is that there is no contrast. Contrast is a dicey thing in carbon steel. It is rare that you get black and silver contrast. The sanding can remove the darker color almost immediately.

The 1084 may be the issue?

That grainy surface is not a 1000 grit finish. Hopefully it wasn't over worked and overheated.
Take it down to a perfect 400 grit and then re-etch.

After a good etch for 10 minutes, with repeated rinse off and back into the tank every two minutes, take the blade out, rinse only in running water - but don't wipe it off. Place in a pot of water with a teaspoon of TSP or baking soda and boil for 15-30 minutes. Rinse well and dry off. After that you can wipe the blade down with oil.
Next, wrap some 800 -1000 grit paper around a hard wooden block or piece of aluminum and sand the high spots back to shiny. Try not to touch the low spots.
 
A couple of additional things that are possibly related to your issues. What is your backer block when sanding? If it's soft or your not careful about keeping the paper tight to your sansing block, you will sand off the oxides on the 1084 while cleaning the 15N20, reducing the contrast on the broader 1084 parts of the pattern.

And you have a low layer count which makes all the layers broad, so it'll be hard to clean the black off the 15N20 without also getting into (read: also clean off) the 1084.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
That grainy surface is not 1000 grit finish.
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Honestly, I think the graininess is from over etching. I tried at the low dilution for several cycles, and then again at higher concentrations of ferric chloride. That's when the graininess started showing up.

Thanks for all the other ideas. I definitely need to be better about the sanding block and will try sanding back to 400 and doing the process suggested by Stacy.

As far as overheating, that's certainly possible due to my inexperience. However, if anything, I've been more worried about my forge not being hot enough. It's a single burner and red into an orange color is the most I've been able to achieve. Certainly nothing in the yellow to almost white color that is used for a lot of forge welding I've seen. During the forging of this billet I feel like I had very little working time before it needed to be put back into the forge to reheat.
 
kg14701 said:
red into an orange color is the most I've been able to achieve.
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The color you see is entirely dependent on the overall lighting in your forging area. The darker your shop, the brighter the colors look and the more accurate you'll be.
 
I went back through my grits and re-etched per Stacy's instructions. Again ended up with no differentiation between the layers. I'm going to go with bad steel as my cause. I've ordered some 1084 and 15N20 from Alpha Knife Supply and will try again. I'll report back on how things go with steel from a more reliable source.
This picture is after resanding, etching for ten minutes with rinses every two minutes, and carefully sanding with 1000 grit on a block. At no point did the different layers remotely differentiate themselves.
 
That blade is awful shiny. You might be over sanding.
Try etching , Tsp rinse or spraying with windex with ammonia, cold water rinse then a very very light rub with 4 ought steel wool.
 
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