Belt Sander Recommendations

J

jsmbrown

Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
11
Hello All

I used to collect knives years ago and then got out of it. My son is 12 years old now and his passion for blades is getting me back into knives again. I have mostly Pakistan stainless steel knives that look great, but do not hold and edge. I have several other good (not great) knives and a couple of pretty good knives. I have tried sharpening knives over the years with stones, mini diamond rods, diamond stones, and paper wheels. I have rarely been able to get a knife razor sharp. I am considering getting a belt sander now for sharpening. My plan is to get really good at sharpening first, then profiling blanks, and eventually making a knife with a small forge. I don't see myself ever making more than 3 to 5 knives a year. The belt sander would be mostly used for sharpening.

I am considering the kalamazoo 1x42" sander or the grizzly 2x72". I hate to spend $500 on a grinder just to sharpen knives, but if the grizzly is that much better than the kalamazoo then I will because I have learned it is better to spend more to get a better tool. So knowing my purpose for the grinder, what would you recommend? Are there other grinders I should consider? Would you also recommend a sharpening system, like the sharpmaker or would a grinder and the various belts including leather get knives just as sharp?

Thanks in advance,

Joe
 
Your dime, buy what you want. Quality is certainly nice. I have a cheap $30 HF 1x30" belt sander. It has worked great for me. It certainly is NOT quality. It will bog down/stop if pressed hard. But it has sharpened everything i have needed it to & removed a lot of metal in a short time when the edges were way off center. For me, it was a great buy because once my knife edge is centered and is sharp, i hand sharpen them from that day forward. Thats just my experience. YRMV
 
Thank you RevDevil. Being new, I was not sure where my questions would go.
TwinStick, I learned the hard way you are better off spending a little more sometimes. Then other times I go overboard and buy a giant tig welder I rarely use. :)
 
Honestly, I don't like using the grinder for edges, I use it to get CLOSE but then create an actual edge with a Lanksy set and finish sharpening with the same. Sometimes I do a final touch up with other methods. Unless you have a variable speed on the grinder and a very light touch it's hard to do the job right and you always risk overheating the edge, which is one of the reasons most Paki-made blades don't hold their edge. The edge and all the metal near the edge got tempered to oblivion during the sharpening process.
 
I wouldn't use a belt sander for sharpening.

But since you also mentioned making, here's this

There is a grinder section



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V21

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, A2,
Or air quenched CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package, slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than youfirst think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V21 Added Glue Oct 3, 2011.
 
1x30 grinders are fine for sharpening imo.You can finish the edges with leather or felt belts and get amazing polished edges.
 
For smaller blades I still use a little 1x42 that I got from Lee Valley Tools. 7 years ago, it was a good deal for the money. They still carry it. I added my own 1/2 hp motor- it sharpens quickly and easily with 220, 400, then green rouge on a leather belt. Easy way to get a shaving edge.

However, I more often use belts up to 600 on my variable 2x72 and finish with water stones and hand stropping.
 
From what I read about grinds, the convex seems to be the way to go. I am thinking I will need a belt sander for that. Is that true? Are they the best overall grind and is the belt sander the best way for me to achieve that or should I try to strop one after sharpening with a sharpmaster?
 
You can create a convex edge with a mousepad and some sandpaper. Just use the mousepad (firm but with give) as backing for the paper, and it will hug the edge and create a radius. There are lots of videos on youtube showing that technique, mostly people reprofiling their stock edges.
 
Would that work better than a sharpmaster at achieving a razor sharp durable edge? Or should I use a sharpmaster first and then strop with the mouse pad/sandpaper to finish the edge into convex? I am not a patient person and need a system that can achieve quick results. :)
 
I honestly couldn't say if it works better than anything else.. but a convex edge is a strong edge, assuming the blade isn't extremely thin. Durability is probably more to do with the steel and hardness etc, and the cutting tasks.
As for speed of attaining the convex.. you can probably do it pretty quickly either way it depends what you're practiced at. I can't recommend one over the other.
Heavier grits of sandpaper will remove more metal faster, so that might speed things up for you. You just have to (should) polish out the scratches with smaller and smaller grits until you're satisfied. Watch the videos on youtube, you'll get a feel for how long it might take.
 
I've tried my HF 1 x 30 for sharpening and it runs to fast for me. I feel more comfortable sharpening on a variable speed sander. I think the Sears 2 x 42 runs at about half the speed of the HF so it might be easier to sharpen on it. I've got about 50 hours on my HF and it is beginning to make noises so durability is an issue?
 
Have been looking at the K-zoo 1x 42. Worth it? what belts would I need for sharpening?
 
I use my Kala 1x42 for sharpening mostly now that I got m 2x72. Worth it for JUST that? Probably not. But it is a good little grinder for various shop tasks. Knifekits sells it as a "finishing" grinder, for doing handles etc. You can also get a hinge-plate to make it a horizontal grinder which is also nice for handles. It's a lot of money to put into a 1x42 though, when you factor in shipping etc. Belts I use a 400 grit to put a convex edge on axes or sharpen chisels etc, but you could go 320 400 600 etc as polished as you want. 400 is pretty functional, for my uses though. Don't take any of that as law, just my personal experiences with it.
 
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