Bench stone sharpening question

22-rimfire

22-rimfire

Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
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I use DMT bench stones as well as others. Sometimes I see a need to re-profile a new knife. Case in point, GEC folder feels sharp on one side and much duller on other. How to fix? (Sometimes I seem to make it worse not better.) So sharpening experts, please help. Keep the explanation simple, which side of the blade do you pay the most attention to to even out the edge properly.

For the purpose of this example; Left is sharp side (to touch) and Right is dull side (to touch). Sharpen on left or right to even out the edge? Meaning the side that is touching the bench stone. Please keep your comments easy to understand.
 
It sounds like you have a burr on your edge. Be sure to pay each side of your edge equal attention and keep the edge angle equal on both sides. If your really struggling to get the burr off, try stropping on leather with some polishing compound.
 
TheDandyLion said:
It sounds like you have a burr on your edge. Be sure to pay each side of your edge equal attention and keep the edge angle equal on both sides. If your really struggling to get the burr off, try stropping on leather with some polishing compound.
Click to expand...


What he said ^. If it feels that way from the factory make a few very light passes on the "sharp" side. It might flip, so check and follow.
 
Yes, this is a new knife. I know things are not always as simple as it seems. But this particular thing confuses the heck out of me and I have been sharpening knives for 40 years. Yes, to a burr.....

So to cut the burr, you are sharpening "more" on the side that feels sharp versus the dull side. Correct? I know I'll have to do both. But I want to try and even things out quickly and then sharpen both sides evenly.

I have sharpened both sides evenly thinking that I will remove the burr and get the angles right on each side. But often, it just seems to get worse.
 
The burr is removed by using light pressure.

Make two or three strokes on the dull side and see if the burr flips to the other side, if it does then you know you have your edge apexed. If not then you need to grind more. If it flips, then continue with alternating strokes with light pressure until the burr is mostly gone. Occasionally run the edge through soft wood or a felt deburring block and continue honing with light pressure. Done correctly you should be left with little to no burr and the edge at a minimal should feel sharp and shave hair regardless of grit (especially with diamond plates).
 
Here's a video discussing burr removal and showing the "flip it over with a wooden stick" technique. The person on video is our own BF member Bluntcut. Listen to what he says. His English heavily accented, but he knows what he's talking about. Just watch the results.

[video=youtube;l2ynSDYEUYI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ynSDYEUYI[/video]

Brian.
 
If it feels that way from the factory make a few very light passes on the "sharp" side. It might flip, so check and follow.
Click to expand...

Make two or three strokes on the dull side and see if the burr flips to the other side, if it does then you know you have your edge apexed.
Click to expand...

So one person says makes passes on the sharp side and the other says make passes on the dull side. You see my problem.

What I often end up with is making the "sharp side" sharper and no change on the dull side.
 
It doesn't really matter just grind each side a little and see what happens.

It sounds like you are not looking close enough at the edge, visual inspection is very important. I further my inspection by using a 30x loupe to get a very close look, I would recommend it to any sharpener.
 
You're right, I seldom look at the edge with a loupe. I have a 10x, but not a 30x.


I do real well when the apex geometry is pretty consistent. It is when things get skewed that I have problems and frustrations. I often just seem to make the problem "more".

But I do appreciate your taking the time to comment.
 
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Just trying to keep it simple like you asked :)

What could really help would be a picture of the edge. Most phones have a good camera and zoom that could be very helpful to us in solving your edge issues.
 
I appreciate you trying to keep it simple. It should be simple. (Added) I have already tried to sharpen it by the way. I didn't start this thread out of total ignorance, but it seems I am ignorant or lack the patience to correct the problem.

I don't view this as rocket science. It's simple geometry. Excuse my frustrations or rant. I simply want to correct the geometry in a predictable way and live happily ever after. :D I don't like to sharpen and sharpen with no predictable result. It is not something I do for fun.

I'm not going to post a picture. I doubt it would help unless it was some sort of macro thing. My history is that I have posted one picture since I joined. I upgraded to Gold to post pictures within the forum, but that didn't seem to work out. The software didn't work a year or two ago and I haven't tried since.

I'll give it another try and see how it goes. If it goes as it has, I will probably just toss it in my un-used knife pile. But it's a really nice knife and I don't want to do that. Most of the un-used knives are sharp by the way. I just for whatever reason, never used them for anything.
 
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Think of the apex a bit like a Hershey's kiss. The burr winds up being the steel that leans away from the abrasive surface. Irt is common on factory edges to still have a bunch of this left.

It can be removed with light pressure, maybe at a slightly larger angle than the angle it was ground at.

That sharp feeling you detect on one side is the burr leaning over. Both sides should feel the same and a visual inspection should not reveal it.

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Bluntcut's video can help clarify the confusion. The 'sharp' part means that when you rub the blade from spine to edge with finger, it feel sharp. Is that correct understanding?
The 'dull' is that the edge doesn't catch skin, so feel dull?

If that's the case, then Martin's suggestion to try removing burr is correct. The side that feel sharp gas a burr facing that side.

Having said that, I usually don't use factory edge and put my own on both sides.

Edit: Martin posted his clear diagram :thumbup:
I also have been sharpening for like 10-20 years (don't remember) until I found this sub forum and learn from masters here: Jason, Martin, David (two of them), Bluntcut, Brian, Magnanimous, and some others that name escapes me. It was a fun journey but your purpose seems just to get rid of the burr and move on. Unfortunately some of these problems require more learning. I recalled my frustration on some knives in the past, so I can relate. Take a break and try again. I have found cracking the problem help me progressing. Hopefully you do too.
 
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I haven't watched the video yet. But, thank you very much. I think it is mostly a patience thing on my end with the wire edge. Maybe I am simply over sharpening.... I flip the knife and take a few swipes and check again, and the same side is just "sharper" or I increased the wire edge/burr in doing so. I'll figure it out. I just thought it was a simple question when I started this thread. The diagram and text is very good and in plain English.

Chris, I thought when I used the left and right terminology that it would be easy to refer to either side that way. Yes, it is relative to the handle end. You have it right in terms of "sharp and dull". But we know that a wire edge does not last long which is why I want to fix it. I do want to remove the burr, but ultimately, I want a sharp knife. The side to sharpen relative to the felt sharpness is not intuitive to me.

For me, I dislike the experience of repeated sharpening exercises and not achieving the result I am seeking. I know this is stupid, but in the back of my mind I feel that I am un-necessarily wearing away the blade. I just want to do it right.
 
Here is the answer to my question from the diagram and removing the burr...... the sharp felt side of the knife blade is opposite the side that created the burr in the first place. In which case, to remove the burr, you lightly sharpen on the "sharp side". If the burr forms on the opposite side, then flip and repeat. This may be incorrect, but at this point, I usually move up in grit size.

The knife may well not need much work to sharpen it evenly on both sides. We'll see.

Added: It's kind of funny, but I wrote this (above) but I am still not convinced that this is correct. That's why for me it is not intuitive at all. If you are sharpening only one side, then obviously you need to sharpen the other side to balance out the edge geometry. But when you are sharpening both sides alternating and the wire edge forms, the question of which side to hit next to remove the burr.
 
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The side that feels sharp has the burr that has been pushed over to it from the opposite side. Once you reach this point sharpening evenly on both sides you know you have apexed The edge. Now you have to remove the burr without adding to it. If you switch sides and keep the same pressure you just keep going away steel and adding to the burr. You must take progressively lighter strokes on alternate sides evenly until Th e burr (or wire edge) is gone. Alternatively you can remove it with a strop and no abrasive or compound at all. Just by taking passes on each side bending it back and forth until it breaks off. Just like bending a wire back and forth until it breaks.
I find harder steels form less of a burr to start with so it's easier to remove.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk
 
Followed the advice. Worked well on 1095. Thank you all. Knocked off the wire edge with DMT fine and then finished up with DMT Extra fine.

I know that a lot of people have this same intuitive problem. It is also one of the reasons I posted the thread.

Addendum: I think I could learn a few things looking at the knife edge under magnification in general. At the beginning of this thread, I was thinking I needed to re-profile the blade believing that GEC did all their factory sharpening on one side and pretty much skipped the other. Magnification would have answered that question for me. All that was needed on this particular knife was to remove the wire edge/burr but I didn't realize it at the beginning, thinking the worst of GEC. (Same thing happens sometimes with Queen knives.)

As Jason said, ....pretty much start sharpening it and see where it leads. He suspected it was a wire edge from the beginning and easily fixed. The one thing I take from this thread is a better understanding of just "where the wire edge is" and what side created it. I always understood creating a wire edge sharpening, but always was unsure which side created it because when I sharpen, I am switching back and forth between the two sides. If you know that, you can fix it. If you don't, you can just make it worse and lead to frustration. Sharpening (and I mean light sharpening) on the "sharp side" was totally counter intuitive to me.

I want to thank the folks here for taking the time to walk me through this. I know it is a old and repeated topic, but thank you just the same rather than just linking me to another thread.
 
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