Bernard Levine Moderator Abuse

G

gambler

Banned
Joined
Sep 16, 2001
Messages
58
For those of you who have a little time, pleae take a look at a now-closed thread in Bernard Levine's Forum entitled "More Fakes on eBay". The reading may be tedious, but if you can wade your way through, I ask you the following two questions:

1.Do you agree that the Bladeforum rules are appropriate?

2. If so, do you feel Bernard Levine has abided by them as a moderator of his forum and a contributor to it?

You can find the thread at:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169579&perpage=20&pagenumber=1


You can find the Bladeforums Rules at:

http://www.bladeforums.com/rules.shtml

Thanks,
Bob Rosenberger
 
:rolleyes:

Not nearly as inappropriate as you have been.
 
You get what's coming.

First off, this belongs in the Service & Support forum. Second, you have your own actions to answer for before you start throwing stones.

Kevin
 
Gambler,
If the knives are fake, as Mr. Levine believes, then you are completely in the wrong. Mr. levine does not owe you a duty to educate you. You owe a duty of care to everyone who may rely on your
description of these knives as authentic. Your ignorance is no defence. It is negligence. If you were reckless in your representations you may also have been fraudulent, and that is assuming what you did was not deliberate. Making reference to mr. Levine's authority to substantiate your claim of authenticity is unlawful in numerous respects and probably constitutes the torts of passing off, inter alia.
You haven't just violated the rules of Bladeforums, you've violated common decency and common law. At the minimum.
Now with these accusations against Mr. Levine, you have defamed him. And I do mean that legally and literally.
Defamation is against the rules of this forum. So is gross stupidity and a complete absence of common courtesy and common sense.
Any more questions, fool?
 
Bob,

In adding to the already voluminous amount of derogatory responses to my posts, not to mention the unsolicited hate mail that I receive via the forums...

I would tend to agree with your general premise...in a minute, with these caveats...

But first, an answer to your questions…

Question # 1. “Do you agree that the Bladeforum(sic) rules are appropriate?” The answer to that question is pretty much moot, as attested by the following quote from the “Big book of somebody said so”, i.e. “The rules”, to wit…

Subscriber and Member Agreement

This Agreement sets forth the terms and conditions which apply to the use by you of BladeForums.com and any other subscription product or service offered for sale by BladeForums.com ("BFC"). The right to use any product or service offered by BFC is personal to you and is not transferable to any other person or entity.

Specifically, Section #4 of above mentioned Subscriber and Member Agreement: Section #4, Monitoring. BFC shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the Community Areas to determine compliance with this Agreement and any other operating rules that may be established by BFC from time to time. BFC shall have the right in its sole discretion to edit, refuse to post or remove any material submitted to or posted on the Community Areas. Without limiting the foregoing, the BFC shall have the right, but not the obligation, to remove any material that BFC, in its sole discretion, finds to be in violation of the provisions hereof, otherwise objectionable or stale. Notwithstanding this right of BFC, users shall remain solely responsible for the content of their messages. You acknowledge and agree that neither BFC nor any of its affiliates shall assume or have any liability for any action or inaction by BFC with respect to any conduct within the Community Areas or any communication or posting on the Community Areas.

So, from that wording Bob, it becomes readily apparent to me that this BFC forum is NOT a democracy, and as such, my choice as a member is to acknowledge, and acquiesce to the rules set forth…or press on down the road. Right or wrong, “Dem’s da rules.”

Question # 2: If so, do you feel Bernard Levine has abided by them as a moderator of his forum and a contributor to it? Again, another moot point Bob…

From the Subscriber and Member Agreement Section # 5, subsection part E: BFC Neither endorses nor is responsible for the accuracy or reliability of any opinion, advice or statement on bladeforums.com, nor for any offensive, defamatory or obscene posting made on the community areas by anyone other than authorized BFC. employee spokespersons while acting in their official capacities. Under no circumstances will BFC be liable for any loss or damage caused by your reliance on information obtained through either the content on bladeforums.com and/or any postings on the community areas. it is your responsibility to evaluate the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any information, opinion, advice or other content available through bladeforums.com and/or the community areas. Please seek the advice of professionals, as appropriate, regarding the evaluation of any specific information, opinion, advice or other content, including but not limited to financial, health, or lifestyle information, opinion, advice or other content.

Being that BRL is not a paid employee of BFC, and in accordance with your acknowledgement and agreement to the above mentioned “rules” when you signed up as a BFC member, (You did read the rules didn’t you Bob?), your question, as posed, in and of itself, is an invalid question….end of debate.

Now Bob, and this is when the water starts to heat up a bit, if you were asking if BRL was, INYNSHO, rude? Sure he was…but BFD, people are rude everyday…get over it.

If you were asking if BRL, in his quasi-official status as both an acknowledged knife expert, AND BFC moderator, should have been more forthright, understanding, and polite…possibly, but I’m not BRL, and he has NO obligation to be anything but himself. (Dodging flaming arrows now…)

A little history lesson here Bob, and believe me, I don’t mean this to be condescending at all…I really don’t, so please bear with me…

We knife enthusiasts, whether we be collectors, hobbyists, resellers, or just plain interested parties have found that reliable, solid, researched information on knives, their history, and their value, to be Extremely hard to come by….and BRL has proven himself time and time again to be one that an enthusiast could turn to for the Quality information that we Need. (Deliberate usage of capitalization for emphasis).

(This is the “inertia” that I referred to in the closed thread that you referenced.)

A side note here would be appropriate….BRL has offered a paid service to help fellow enthusiasts identify their knives….the link can be found at: http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/appr-k.htm At $25 per knife for those you already owned Bob, (or $2 for a knife listed on ebay that you’re thinking about buying, and $5 for a non-ebay knife that’s been offered to you for sale…), you could have had them professionally appraised, and saved everyone involved so far, time, effort, and hard feelings.

So, whereas BRL has proven himself a reliable source, (I’ve personally used his $2 e-bay service on several occasions with prompt, courteous responses), you’ve come across as a bit of an ass.

When I say that you’ve come across as an ass Bob, what I meant to say is, it’s not a sacred cow that you’re taking shots at bud, it’s a person that has been a friend to more people in this hobby than you could ever possibly imagine.

Also, if earned dollars are hard won, and mine are; and if one high dollar “mistake” can take away the enjoyment from a fellow enthusiast, (and it can), leading to his turning away from the hobby…then we, all of us knife enthusiast’s need to be forever vigilant, so as to ensure that none of us gets taken advantage of…

Honest to god, in my heart Bob, I think that’s what BRL was thinking too…

That being said, in more words than I intended, you’re screwed here Bob….you have zero recourse other than to keep digging, or dust off.

I’m offering you a hand up Bob, a way to “dust off” gracefully, and an understanding of the “way things work” around here.

I hope you’ll take this to heart buddy, it’s time to let it go….kapish?
 
I think Razor's use of the word is fairly fitting here, as the whole intent was to stir up some feces:


A Public Service Announcement On Trolls</CENTER>
 
Melvin, very well said.
(please do not fall over or puke because I said that! :D)
 
There are a lot of forgeries on the antique markets, and the people offering them for sale are not necessarily aware of it, especially when they venture out of the field they know best. It often happens that someone points out to such a seller there's an obvious forgery on his table, and often not in terms as diplomatic as the seller might wish for. There's nothing remarkable about that; it happens every day.

It's in the seller's reaction to the information that it gets interesting. Some people feel they've been saved from selling a fake in the nick of time, and they're so pleased at having been saved from ruining their reputation they're grateful for the tip, no matter how bluntly it was phrased. Others would rather not listen....

I guess just about everybody who's been buying and selling any kind of antique for a while has bought some fakes -- it happens to the best of us. It's what we do about it when we find out that separates the sheep from the goats.
 
I'm going to give this crusade up at this point because I guess I'm getting as bored with it as you are.

I regret this happened at all. Had BRL simply explained to me privately why my knives were fakes, I would have changed the listings appropriately. However, he went public with his name calling and accusations without giving me the information with which to do so and for which I asked.

Why is it that everyone, except BRL himself, is ready to explain (i.e., justify) his unprofessional behavior? In the everyday business world, his comments could have landed him smack in the middle of a civil law suit. Such outrageous behavior has no place here or anywhwere else.

You may be interested to know that I have paid BRL in the past for his opinion on a W&F marked push dagger. He felt it was fake, gave me the reasons why, and I was happy to pay him. Until Bernie accused me of posting fake knives, I had no reason to believe they were not what I had been previously told they were. I will still not modify my eBay listings based on an accusation if no reason for the accusation is also provided. Further, I will not hestitate to cite any valid reference in my listings.

My contention that BRL slandered, extorted and censored me stands. I am sorry that none of you saw fit to publically answer my 2 simple questions with equally simple yes or no answers. The questions are not moot; they are quite relevant and they can be answered "Yes" or "No" instead of trying to rationalize them away.

It's sad that there are many who privately agreed with me, but were afraid of stating their opinions here for fear of also being abused. When one brave sould dared to publically support my right to cite a reference, BRL slandered him in the threads and then deleted the posts to justify his behavior.

I hope that this is the end of it. I do, however, intend to monitor the Boards and respond to any further comments should the need arise.

You have your BRL and you are welcome to him.

Bob
 
"Hallelujah"

Bob,

I'm sorry that you felt my responses only required a "Yes or No" answer...I felt that the issue was a little more complicated than that.

For example, it was actually you that had previously demanded something more than just a simplistic response...and in attempting to satisfy your requirements, no, more like your "needs", I bent over backwards in an attempt to answer your question(s)...alas, I see my efforts were for naught.

My mistake, it won't happen again.

Best of luck pal...
 
Bob, Do I think that the Bladeforum rules are appropriate? No.

Let me explain. I do believe that you should treat people with respect, but sometimes people deserve to get flamed. If the name they are being called fits then I have no problem with not being nice.

Do I think that Bernie followed the rules? No. Does that bother me? Not in the least.

Something that does bother me though is that you constantly say that Bernie tried to extort money from you. HE DID NO SUCH THING! He told you that if you wanted his proffesional advice then you would have to pay him for it. That is the way the world works. Do you do your job for free. He did not owe you free advice. What he asked of you was completely within his rights and was in no way extortion.

You also talk about him slandering you. It is not slander if it is true. If he can prove that your knives are fakes and that you tried to sell them after being advised of this, then what he has said about you is true.

On the other hand, what you have said about him being an extortionist is slander. So if I were you I would stop acting so high and mighty.

In the future, make sure that what you are selling are not fakes. Then you won't have to worry about someone like Bernie stepping in and doing the right thing, and believe me that is exactly what he did. To see what you know is an injustice and to let it happen is to be as guilty as the person perpetrating the injustice.

If you did not know that the knives were fake, that is understandable. As you have stated, you do not know much about knives. To allow the sale of these knives to go ahead after being informed by an expert that they were fakes is tantamount to fraud. What any person with any empathy would do would be to immediately take these knives off the market until they were authenticated. Hide behind all the indignation that want, you did not do this and you were wrong. Don't bother pointing out the disclaimers that you put on your auction site. They are not good enough. The only honorable thing to have done would have been to close the auction immediately.

If you want to come on these forums and try to turn members against Bernie with all this garbage you have been posting, good luck. It is not going to happen. I have trusted his advice for many years now and know that what he did he did to protect people like me. What I saw you doing was to try to sell me knives that you had been informed were fakes by an expert in the field. Who do you think I am going to support. Not you, that is for sure.

Edited because something did not make sense.
 
gren.gif
 
Originally posted by gambler
I will still not modify my eBay listings based on an accusation if no reason for the accusation is also provided.
Click to expand...


Bob - you obviously missed Bernard's post nine days ago. Please allow me to provide you with his "reason for the accusation" again for your enlightenment.


Originally posted by bernard_levine
It is always difficult to recognize something wrong about a knife when one is not familiar with what is right. And this is precisely what this seller is trying to cash in on.

The fake Price and the fake Will & Finck are typical of fakes made from pictures without study of real knives. The lines and proportions are all wrong. The details of construction are all wrong. In addition, Price dress bowies with this shape handle don't have separate crossguards. Here are 3 real Price bowies...

...On the fake Will & Finck, the mark was cold stamped letter at a time, and then the letters filled in with some sort of shiny black paint. And the handle shape is wrong.

The fake Sheffield knife is put together from odd parts. The handle looks to be from an old carver, and the pommel from a different carver. The guard and blade look new, as does the sheath.

BRL...
Click to expand...


Now that one of the world's foremost authorities on knives from this period has givin you an explanation as to why he believes you are attempting to sell forgeries, I hope you'll do the honorable thing and remove your eBay listings. Otherwise you'll simply confirm what many forumites already believe about you...
 
An Apology and Pledge to the Knife Collecting Community

I'd like to apologize to all of you for:

1. Unintentionally posting incorrect and misleading listings of knives I was trying to sell on eBay.
2. Using someone's name to imply, even indirectly, that they were validating my knives.
3. Not correcting or terminating these listings promptly when presented with the information to do so.
4. Engaging in non-pertinent flame wars.


I've learned a painful lesson, which I hope not to repeat. As a result, I pledge to:

1. Do far better research on any knives I plan to sell on eBay or elsewhere by relying on people like you to provide me with the necessary information.
2. Promptly amend or, when necessary, terminate any listings over which there is a controversy when presented with the information to do so. In good faith, I cannot do so based on mere accusation without the rationale for the accusations.
3. Be meticulous and objective in my listings.
4. Offer a life-time return policy (as I do on gambling items) on any knife I sell that does not conform to the description I provided the buyer.
5. Resist the temptation to respond to public abuse with more of the same.
6. Try to resolve differences in a professional, prompt, polite manner.


I hope you see fit to accept this. If you have any comments, I would appreciate your emailing me (gambler@cinci.rr.com) with them. If you ever get to Cincinnati, you have an open invitation to come visit and see my gambling (not knife) collection. Just email or call (513/271-8477) and we can set up a time.


Finally, I've been presented with a couple of knives for possible purchase. Needless to say, I'm a trifle bit gun-shy (knife-shy?). Would anyone out there be willing to look at photos of them and give me your thoughts? I am prepared to pay for such opinions.

Thank you all,
Bob Rosenberger
 
Personally, I'm favourably impressed. I accept the post in the spirit it was offered. But it doesn't seem to me to go far enough to apologize to Mr. Levine.
But neither I nor anyone else here can speak for Mr. Levine. And I wouldn't presume to try.
 
I think what you have just posted took a lot of courage Bob. Good for you. I hope that in some way you can patch things yp with Bernie, because he is the best peron to have authenticate the knives you are looking to buy.
 
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