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best blade material, hi carbon steel or titanium?
- Thread starter torvold
- Start date
Ti is good for handles, but is not hard enough for blades in general. It's a misconception that Ti is harder than steel, it is STRONGER than steel per weight.
Stainless steel is a good choice and there are some more expensive ones (VG10, S30V, 154CM, D2 and M2(semi-stainless) etc.) which can compete very well with high carbon steel. Some average stainless steels (420HC, 440C etc.) are good enough for most applications. The quality of the finished product of ANY steel also depends on the heat treat of the maker.
For the hardest, toughest blades, High carbon, non-stainless steel is probably best, but will rust if exposed to the elements and not cared for (cleaned and oiled - easy to do, easy to forget).
For an everyday knife a med/high-quality stainless is probably a good start.
Stainless steel is a good choice and there are some more expensive ones (VG10, S30V, 154CM, D2 and M2(semi-stainless) etc.) which can compete very well with high carbon steel. Some average stainless steels (420HC, 440C etc.) are good enough for most applications. The quality of the finished product of ANY steel also depends on the heat treat of the maker.
For the hardest, toughest blades, High carbon, non-stainless steel is probably best, but will rust if exposed to the elements and not cared for (cleaned and oiled - easy to do, easy to forget).
For an everyday knife a med/high-quality stainless is probably a good start.
Like the others have said...
Titanium is a good steel for handles and other parts of the knife - very strong and lightweight. But it's too darn soft to make a decent knife blade. It is used in some specialized situations because it's non-metalic and corrosion resistant.
Stainless steel is fine, depending on the specific type and heat treating. It's a very broad category that includes both bottom-of-the-line and also some of the very best knife steels.
High-carbon and other non-stainless steels are good quality, but again it depends on the particular steel and treatment. It's a large category of differing-quality materials.
Best Wishes,
Bob
Titanium is a good steel for handles and other parts of the knife - very strong and lightweight. But it's too darn soft to make a decent knife blade. It is used in some specialized situations because it's non-metalic and corrosion resistant.
Stainless steel is fine, depending on the specific type and heat treating. It's a very broad category that includes both bottom-of-the-line and also some of the very best knife steels.
High-carbon and other non-stainless steels are good quality, but again it depends on the particular steel and treatment. It's a large category of differing-quality materials.
Best Wishes,
Bob
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2004
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- 24,476
OK, here's the thing with titanium.
Forget everything you've seen in movies (*cough* Blade *cough*) regarding titanium as knife/sword material.
If we're talking about quality alloys, titanium is not stronger than steel. Some steel, surely yes, but that's like saying something is stronger than wood, when we're talking about balsa. If you take equal sized (volume) bars of titanium and steel, the steel will be stronger.
The advantage titanium has over steel in strength comes in it's volume vs. weight. Take equal weights of steel and titanium, and titanium is the stronger. But of course, it'll have more volume. This is why Ti is such a good material for handles. At the thicknesses our knive handles and liners have, titanium is more than strong enough. Steel would be unnecessarily stronger and heavier. Titanium also doesn't corrode. It's not as light as aluminum of course, but it's signifcantly stronger and more durable.
Titanium does not make good blades.
When compared to cutlery grade stainless or carbon steel, titanium is way softer. The lowest you'll see "quality" steel at is about 55-56Rc (Rockwell hardness). This would be on knives like Swiss Army Knives (stainless) or Opinels (carbon). The standard for modern high quality steels (154CM/ATS34, S30V, VG-10) is 59-60Rc. Carbon steels can be taken upwards of 62Rc. Keep in mind that the harder a steel is, the more brittle it is (compared to a softer treat of the same steel). The harder a steel is, the longer it will hold an edge...up to a point. If it's too hard, it'll be too brittle, and instead of simply dulling (or rolling) the edge, it'll chip, and that's much worse. Plus, it'll break easier from impacts like chopping, stabbing, or dropping accidentally. With hard-use knives you'll often see softer heat treats to improve impact resistance, but even then you won't see the hardness below 55Rc.
Titanium though cannot get much above 50Rc without becoming too brittle. Titanium is difficult to get a sharp edge on because of its composition and softness. But even that that hardness, it's far softer than steel, and won't hold an edge very well.
This is why the only time you see titanium bladed knives is for very specific situations. They're sometimes used as dive knives because they won't rust/corrode (although the new H1 steel being used by Benchmade and Spyderco may eliminate Ti in this application entirely, as well might Talonite, a cobalt-based metal, in the future). "SPEC-OPs" types like Navy SEALs might use a titanium knife because some mines are triggered by magnetic signatures, and Ti is non-magnetic. The other application you'll see titanium bladed knvies is for last-ditch self defense blades, like the Hideaway. In this sort of situation, edge holding ability isn't really a priority, but it's other properties (corrosion resistance and light weight) are.
Forget everything you've seen in movies (*cough* Blade *cough*) regarding titanium as knife/sword material.
If we're talking about quality alloys, titanium is not stronger than steel. Some steel, surely yes, but that's like saying something is stronger than wood, when we're talking about balsa. If you take equal sized (volume) bars of titanium and steel, the steel will be stronger.
The advantage titanium has over steel in strength comes in it's volume vs. weight. Take equal weights of steel and titanium, and titanium is the stronger. But of course, it'll have more volume. This is why Ti is such a good material for handles. At the thicknesses our knive handles and liners have, titanium is more than strong enough. Steel would be unnecessarily stronger and heavier. Titanium also doesn't corrode. It's not as light as aluminum of course, but it's signifcantly stronger and more durable.
Titanium does not make good blades.
When compared to cutlery grade stainless or carbon steel, titanium is way softer. The lowest you'll see "quality" steel at is about 55-56Rc (Rockwell hardness). This would be on knives like Swiss Army Knives (stainless) or Opinels (carbon). The standard for modern high quality steels (154CM/ATS34, S30V, VG-10) is 59-60Rc. Carbon steels can be taken upwards of 62Rc. Keep in mind that the harder a steel is, the more brittle it is (compared to a softer treat of the same steel). The harder a steel is, the longer it will hold an edge...up to a point. If it's too hard, it'll be too brittle, and instead of simply dulling (or rolling) the edge, it'll chip, and that's much worse. Plus, it'll break easier from impacts like chopping, stabbing, or dropping accidentally. With hard-use knives you'll often see softer heat treats to improve impact resistance, but even then you won't see the hardness below 55Rc.
Titanium though cannot get much above 50Rc without becoming too brittle. Titanium is difficult to get a sharp edge on because of its composition and softness. But even that that hardness, it's far softer than steel, and won't hold an edge very well.
This is why the only time you see titanium bladed knives is for very specific situations. They're sometimes used as dive knives because they won't rust/corrode (although the new H1 steel being used by Benchmade and Spyderco may eliminate Ti in this application entirely, as well might Talonite, a cobalt-based metal, in the future). "SPEC-OPs" types like Navy SEALs might use a titanium knife because some mines are triggered by magnetic signatures, and Ti is non-magnetic. The other application you'll see titanium bladed knvies is for last-ditch self defense blades, like the Hideaway. In this sort of situation, edge holding ability isn't really a priority, but it's other properties (corrosion resistance and light weight) are.
Gollnick
Musical Director
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- Mar 22, 1999
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It is a common myth that Ti has no "magnetic signature" (whatever a "magnetic signture" is).
It is true that Ti does not, itself, become magnetic and is not attracted by magnets. That important for some applications. As Mr. Planterz points out, some mines and other explosives are triggered by magnetic methods. Ti is also non-sparking, another good reason to prefer it around explosives.
However, Ti can be detected electromagnetically which is how most common metal detectors work. Contrary to common myth, Ti knives will set off the alarm bells at your airport or courthouse.
Ti does not, itself, produce a magnetic field. Steel and iron parts, even if not observably magnetic, often do have a trace magnetic field which they pick up if from nowhere else the magnetic field of the earth. There are ways to detect a magnetic field, especially one from a moving object. So this characteristic of Ti is important when you're trying to evade detection systems based on such techniques.
As has been explained, Ti does not make good knife blades. However, it is highly corrosion resistant. And it's often true that a bad knife is better than no knife. So, people who work in corrosive environments, especially salt water, may find a Ti knife better than no knife.
So, the people who are primarily interested in Ti knives are people who work in corrosive environments, especially salt water, especially if they'll be working around explosives, and especially if they don't want to be detected by other people using very sophisticated equipment to try and detect them.
Ti, like copper or aluminum, is an electrical conductor so it will react to a magnetic field by induced current if either the metal or the field is moving.
You can demonstrate this by dropping a 1/4" NdFeB magnet down a 2 foot hunk of 3/8" copper pipe... the falling magnet will induce a current in the copper which produces a magnetic field that opposes the falling magnet and thus slows it to the point that it will take about 10+ seconds to fall 2 feet. Detectors that use an AC magnetic field could easily detect these non-magnetic materials.
You can demonstrate this by dropping a 1/4" NdFeB magnet down a 2 foot hunk of 3/8" copper pipe... the falling magnet will induce a current in the copper which produces a magnetic field that opposes the falling magnet and thus slows it to the point that it will take about 10+ seconds to fall 2 feet. Detectors that use an AC magnetic field could easily detect these non-magnetic materials.
sting7777 said:also - it was my understanding that the metal detectors at airports only sense ferrous metals... thats why the titanium plate in my head doesn't set them off!
No the plate is probably just thin or small enough. I have one in my knee, it sets off the super sensitive wand, but not the walkthrough.
If they only wanted to sense ferrous materials, they could use a 1+ tesla electromagnet (like in an MRI machine). If you had a knife in your pocket it would yank you to the magnet or rip it away. It would certainly be more entertaining.
Planterz said:
Thanks for the gory details
Also, don't you just love all the electric razor commercials advertizing "Titainium Sharp Blades". Sure a Ti coating may ward corrosion, but they use stainless anyway. ugh. Those ads may be perpetuating the myth.