Best Blade Steel

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Anarkistic

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Jun 17, 2013
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Hi guys, I've been researching blade steels. Different sources say different things. I would like to what the best steel is for a fixed blade combat knife if :

1) corrosion resistance is NOT important
2) corrosion resistance IS important

What do think of this video ? It states rust / corrosion resistance aside, plain carbon steels are the toughest and hardest of all steels.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MXOd...ktop_uri=/watch?v=MXOdOtLyWqY&feature=related
 
Stainless steel = M390 or CTS-204p for edge retention/ CTS-XHP for better toughness, ease of sharpening and outstanding keenness edge.

Tool steel = CTS-PD1 for super toughness, nice edge retention and not so bad corrosion resistance/ K390 for extreme edge retention (its probably the highest edge retention steel available on this planet which also came with great toughness, imagine the wear resistance of 10V with M4 toughness at 64+HRC... ).

If you don't mind doing some maintenance, 52100 is really a great combination of toughness, edge retention and very find grained, at great price.
 
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Anarkistic said:
Hi guys, I've been researching blade steels. Different sources say different things. I would like to what the best steel is for a fixed blade combat knife if :

1) corrosion resistance is NOT important
2) corrosion resistance IS important

What do think of this video ? It states rust / corrosion resistance aside, plain carbon steels are the toughest and hardest of all steels.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MXOd...ktop_uri=/watch?v=MXOdOtLyWqY&feature=related
Click to expand...

It would help if you could tell us what you feel a "combat knife" is or does, and what steel properties you feel it is important for a combat knife to have. Then we could help you better.

As far as the video (which I didn't watch)...its a YouTube video. Making and posting a video on YouTube does not an expert make. :D
 
marcinek said:
It would help if you could tell us what you feel a "combat knife" is or does, and what steel properties you feel it is important for a combat knife to have. Then we could help you better.

As far as the video (which I didn't watch)...its a YouTube video. Making and posting a video on YouTube does not an expert make. :D
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I'm pretty new to the world of knives. I'd imagine a combat knife should hold a very sharp edge and be tough (doesn't chip easy). Such a knife would have a maximum blade length of 7 inches, therefore strength isn't as important but still needs to resist deformity under load.

Price is not really an issue.
 
Anarkistic said:
I'm pretty new to the world of knives. I'd imagine a combat knife should hold a very sharp edge and be tough (doesn't chip easy). Such a knife would have a maximum blade length of 7 inches, therefore strength isn't as important but still needs to resist deformity under load.

Price is not really an issue.
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Is it something one uses for hand to hand combat? General utility? Opening MREs? Are you deploying? Entering combat?

Knowing this stuff will help us answer your question.
 
Anarkistic said:
What do think of this video ? It states rust / corrosion resistance aside, plain carbon steels are the toughest and hardest of all steels.
Click to expand...

Simply not true. CPM-3V at good-to-high hardness (58Rc-62Rc) will outperform any plain carbon steel I know of in rough use (or delicate use for that matter). It's not only as tough or tougher, but will keep an edge longer. INFI is right up there with CPM-3V (which is better really depends on whom you ask... it's clear that they're both excellent steels). Both INFI and 3V are more corrosion-resistant than plain carbon steels, but not stainless. S-series steels are tougher, but don't compare in hardness and wear-resistance.

If you did require stainless, my choices would be Elmax or CTS-XHP. Again because they have the highest toughness in their class.

I would not recommend D2 or CPM-D2 for a heavy-duty knife (it makes great hunters, EDC's, and so forth, though) It has great wear-resistance but very little toughness compared to the other steels we're talking about. Not even in the same category.

Anarkistic said:
Would a custom knife maker have access to infi?
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Only if you buy a Busse and have someone regrind it (a strikingly expensive proposition).
 
Cpm 3V if you are really worried about rust then just send it off to have it coated, but 3V is remarkably stain resistant imo.
 
Anarkistic said:
Hi guys, I've been researching blade steels. Different sources say different things. I would like to what the best steel is for a fixed blade combat knife if :

1) corrosion resistance is NOT important
2) corrosion resistance IS important

What do think of this video ? It states rust / corrosion resistance aside, plain carbon steels are the toughest and hardest of all steels.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MXOd...ktop_uri=/watch?v=MXOdOtLyWqY&feature=related
Click to expand...

You may hear that "best" is a dirty word, but personally, for a "combat knife", (I read as "Utility Knife"), I think of fairly thick stock, relatively obtuse grind, and blade length between 5-8", mostly used as an all-around knife to do anything that needs doing. Here is what I think:

First of all, Carbon steels are great, but there are a range of alloys that far exceed the capabilities of plain carbon steel in any and all categories, including hardness; some stainless, some not. If your experience with stainless vs. carbon is Case CV vs. Gerber birthday surprise, then it's easy to see how someone thought carbon was superior.

For any knife where corrosion resistance doesn't matter, I'd pick CPM-M4. It's my favorite steel, and at 64HRc, it's toughness is equal to 154CM at 58HRc. If you're going custom, HT can go on up to 66HRc, at which point it's still about as tough as m390 or D2 at 60HRc (link). Of course, it's edge holding at this level is exceptional, as evidenced by a 62.5Hrc example in Ankerson's Test, and only gets better as you go up in hardness. I recommend 62-64HRc to get the most out of both toughness and edge-holding.

If corrosion resistance was a problem, the field widens to a great selection of very stainless options with extraordinary performance. This makes choosing more difficult, but I would have to go with ELMAX for your needs. Its corrosion resistance is as good as I've ever seen, toughness is among the highest if not the highest for stainless cutlery steel at or above 60HRc (comparable to M4, in fact), and edge holding is in the same league as M4 and m390, depending on hardness. I believe for it's balance of excellent properties, it is the best option in stainless right now, unless you really need the very best edge holding or speed of sharpening, though it's not especially hard to sharpen with ceramic or diamond stones. It also has high hardenability, and shines over 60HRc. I think the best bet for ELMAX is 61-62HRC, again as a balance of toughness, edge holding, and now corrosion resistance. As much as you hear about m390 being "stainless M4", I think the all around properties of the alloys show ELMAX to be more closely linked to CPM-M4 than m390.

Of course, this is a hard choice since we are so spoiled for good steel these days, and your skills and needs may determine your steel choice. If you want the best in edge retention and don't mind long (but infrequent) sharpening sessions, s110v, 10v, or k390 may be better choices, though they lose toughness. If you want the toughest knife around, 3v or s7 are hard to beat. The list goes on, but for all-around performance, my money rests with CPM-M4 and ELMAX.
 
marcinek said:
Is it something one uses for hand to hand combat? General utility? Opening MREs? Are you deploying? Entering combat?

Knowing this stuff will help us answer your question.
Click to expand...

Lacking that information, the best blade steel for a combat knife the 420HC of a Leatherman Wave. Finest combat knife made.
 
if it's a knife strictly for combat, I wouldn't worry about edge holding, as nobody gets into combat with knives anymore, or if they do they just get shot... ;)

so find whatever looks the most extreme,I guess?

otherwise, if you're thinking of the military type "fighting knife" which is abused all day, then many steels will suit your purpose given the knife has an obtuse enough grind....

I say cpm m4, but I don't know of any knives like that in thus steel.

honestly for non stainless 1095 will probably do more than you need it to. for stainless you can run the gamut from 154cm, to vg10, to m390, etc... given the right design they'll all do fine.
 
goodeyesniper said:
if it's a knife strictly for combat, I wouldn't worry about edge holding, as nobody gets into combat with knives anymore, or if they do they just get shot... ;)

so find whatever looks the most extreme,I guess?
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marcinek said:
Lacking that information, the best blade steel for a combat knife the 420HC of a Leatherman Wave. Finest combat knife made.
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C'mon guys, there's no need to be snarky or obfuscatory. The OP has already stated he's considering a fixed blade knife, probably no more than 7" blade length, and is open to high cost... which puts us into custom territory, not necessarily something off-the-shelf.

GIRLYmann said:
this article probably has got a point
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2013/06/24/blade-steel-ten/
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That's a pretty good common-sense overview, but I flatly disagree with this quote:

Tony Sculimbrene said:
You can’t get a hard, tough, corrosion resistant steel.
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That's flatly untrue these days. To slightly varying degrees, INFI, CPM-3V, CPM-M4, Elmax and CTS-XHP can all get plenty hard and retain more than enough toughness, and range from reasonably corrosion-resistant (certainly much more so than 1095 or O1) to about as "stainless" as it gets. With proper geometry for the task, any of those would make a fine combat/survival/tactical knife, and just plain outperform plain carbon steels in every area except being super-easy to sharpen. And to that point I say, pocket-sized diamond honing stones are cheap and easy to use. :)
 
james terrio said:
C'mon guys, there's no need to be snarky or obfuscatory.
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Well I certainly didn't mean to be obfuscatory. At least I think I didn't mean to...not entirely sure what it means. :D

Let me try again, then. If one means "fighting knife" by "combat knife"...I think steel is academic. You can stab a guy with a grocery store steak knife.

If one means "6-7 inch chopper/basher/smasher fixed blade" by "combat knife"....then I'm partial to 5160. All I'm looking for in that case is something that stands up to chopping/bashing/smashing, and 5160 does that.

So...I say 5160 is the best.

Unless someone is intent on spending more money...then I say get a Busse in INFI. People seem to like it. Busse's seem to have a "combat knife" sensibility if I understand "combat knife."
 
Thanks all really appreciate the input, my knowledge has been much improved.
What do you Think of jay fishers page ive just come across on knife steels, agree/disagree ? See below

440C High chromium martensitic stainless tool steel is chosen for it's machinability, ease of care, and long lasting value. Actually classified as SAE 51440C, the description in the machinist's guide is: "This steel has the greatest quenched hardness and wear resistance upon heat treatment of any corrosion or heat-resistant steel." 440C is one of the most often used knife steels in the handmade industry because flat out, it's a great steel. It is my most often used steel, and it has a fantastic reputation of reliability and value. One of the seldom mentioned characteristics of 440C is its high toughness. This steel, when properly processed, is tougher than some of the other alloys like S30V and S90V and D2, and is more resistant to breakage and fracture both in the heavier cross sections of the knife and at the very thin cutting edge. 440C also has a very high modulus of elasticity, which means the steel is very stiff when under load. 440C is one of the most stain resistant of the stainless tool steels, with up to 18% chromium and up to 1.5% carbon. Not much will corrode this blade steel, and it's tough and hard and wear resistant. No tool steel is rust proof, but 440C is about the best you can get for fine custom knives because in addition to being a high chromium tool steel, it can be smoothly and brightly mirror polished. For long lasting beauty, it's the choice for most of my knives, and for nearly all my high end and sculptural pieces. 440C has and retains high investment value because of its capability to be highly finished and polished, and keep it indefinitely with little care. It is a beautiful high chromium steel. 440C is used in more of my combat knives than any other of the steels I use because it is proven to work well, limit corrosion, and be strong and tough enough for combat tactical and rescue operations, yet it can be sharpened with only moderate effort. There is a reason that one knife blade analysis and testing site claims: "Grade 440C is capable of attaining, after heat treatment, the highest strength, hardness and wear resistance of all the stainless alloys." 440C is a great steel; Just look at some of the finest knives made by some of the best makers in the world. Many are using or have used 440C. It is a gorgeous steel, with a bright bluish-chrome color when polished. When you want an investment piece to have a high finish, hold it well, and hold it for decades and decades, 440C is the way to go. If you want a combat tactical and combat search and rescue knife, one that will not easily and readily rust, is tough and durable, and will not deteriorate if you neglect it, one that will be useful and dependable, one that has proven itself in marine salt water environments and desert sands, remember that 440C is the steel most often selected by my professional and military clients for these reasons. This is why it is industry's choice for corrosion resistant ball bearings, high wear valve seats, and abrasion-resistant shear and planer blades.

CPMS30V, CPMS60V, CPMS90V (sometimes called S30V, S60V, S90V, 440V): There is a major knife manufacturer who claims right here on the internet that "S30V is the only steel designed just for knife blades." This is a total lie. It's typical of how these sites hype steel while making a lousy, cheap knife overall (see Pop Steels above). Crucible Particle Technology who makes this steel will tell you that knife blades account for less than 1% of their sales. These CPM steels were designed and mainly used for plastic injection die molding machines. It's important to see the CPM designation in front of these steels when their use is claimed by makers and manufacturers. It stands for Crucible Particle Metallurgy and means that the steel components and alloys are mixed and inserted in powdered form into a die, and the steel billet is formed under tremendous heat and pressure, similar to sintering of metallic components. This allows an even distribution of alloy elements that might not be possible by traditional methods. The 30, 60, and 90 designations refer to approximately 3% and 6% and 9% of vanadium in the alloy. Vanadium is used to contribute to the refinement of the carbide structure, and thus improves the forgeability of these steels. It has a very strong tendency to form a hard carbide, which improves both the hardness and the wear properties of these steels. However, a large amount of vanadium makes the grinding of the tool steel very difficult. These steels will eat up grinding and finishing belts at three times the rate of 440c, and are much more expensive. The downside is that the price of machining is high, the price of the material is high, and the availability of sizes are limited. These steels, when properly hardened and tempered do create a very tough, very wear resistant blade, slightly more wear-resistant than than 440C. But they are not as tough (resistant to breakage) as 440C. This is important because microscopic fracturing can occur at the cutting edge which will present as a dull blade, but this occurs usually due to impact or overheating when sharpening. So wear-resistant are they that sharpening is extremely difficult without motorized equipment and if done so, overheating must be avoided. Sharpening may also take many steps to achieve a very fine edge, so they're not practical for knife users who might need to sharpen these steels in the field.
 
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