Best freehand blade finishing hone: high grit diamond, ultra fine ceramic, or other?

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maximus83

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Nov 7, 2011
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The subject line says it all. When finishing your hand-sharpened knives, I'm interested in hearing what folks have found to be the best ultra-finishing/refinement type of solution prior to stropping. If you don't use a super high-grit type of hone prior to stropping (for instance, if you finish honing with something in the vicinity of 1000 to 1200 grit, and from there go straight to stropping), I'm interested to hear that too.

But I'm most interested in hearing about those who are using some kind of super high-grit solution to refine their edge prior to stropping. In particular, if you have tried 2 or more of the methods below, I'd be interested to hear your comparative comments. If you're going with a Spyderco UF for instance, what was better about using the UF ceramic, compared to a DMT EEF diamond stone?

Options:

  • High-grit diamonds (ex: DMT's EEF stones, at 8000 grit)
  • Ultra-fine ceramics (ex: Spyderco UF bench stone, est. at around 4000 to 6000 grit)
  • Other high-grit hones (Norton stones, water stones, sandpaper, etc.)


Also, here's a useful thread on the spydie forums asking a very similar question:
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?50477-Ultra-Fine-stone-Extra-Extra-Fine-stone-or-Strop
 
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I'm also interested in what people have to say about this. Currently a 6000 grit King waterstone is my finishing stone. I think it does a nice job, but I've become sort of interested by the Spyderco UF ceramic. Of course the Spyderco is going for $80 locally, so I'd like to know if anyone has experienced both and can say the Spyderco is worth the $$$.

As for my experiences, I like the waterstone pretty well. The only other thing I have that can match its fine-ness is microfinishing sandpaper, which does well. But somehow the stone is nicer to use. I think its the feedback that comes from being harder than paper (even when backed by granite). Also the sandpaper is a little more hassle to set up, so I mainly use it for convex edges on a suede backing. The stone does respond to a very light touch. It will take an edge from a 1200 waterstone and put on a pretty high polish fairly quickly. It will reflect like a mirror but you can still see some scratches underneath the reflection.

Good topic.
 
One point I've seen made by some--and it's mentioned by a user who has tried ceramics and EEF diamond stones in the spydie thread--is that you can get similar RESULTS with a high-grit ceramic and diamond stone. But comparing say the DMT EEF stone to the Spydie UF ceramic, the EEF gets the same results a little FASTER. On the flip side, the ceramic will basically never wear out. So both work, and both have some advantages.
 
The Spyderco UF puts on a very polished edge, more refined than the 6000 grit King stone. The other one I have is the 8000 grit Norton waterstone which is a very fine polishing stone - virtually mirror finish, but for me, lacks the feedback I get from the King or Spyderco - probably a lack of experience with it. Translucent and surgical black Arkansas stones impart a great edge too.

If you don't use a super high-grit type of hone prior to stropping (for instance, if you finish honing with something in the vicinity of 1000 to 1200 grit, and from there go straight to stropping), I'm interested to hear that too.
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My favorite "fast" edge is to go from the 220 grit stone right to my 1200 grit King stone. I've been singing the praises of newspaper stropping for a while now - as long as you can reduce your burr to a very small size, the newspaper can remove the rest and leave you with a polished yet unrounded or smoothed edge - that is it still retains all of its grind features but is much sharper than straight off the stone. It makes for a very aggressive, long lasting edge. When using my whetstones, which I find just a bit more challenging to completely remove the burr straight off the stone, I'll save the swarf and debris on a few sheets of newspaper (I use dish soap and water for lube, so I gently mop it up periodically with the newspaper, and sprinkle a few more drops on the stone to replace it). Then I'll use this for an initial strop to remove the burr entirely and follow with some stropping on plain, dry newspaper. At any grit level, this makes a very sharp edge - depends on what the knife or tool is intended to do. I've gotten nasty edges straight off a 220 grit waterstone using this method. Otherwise, I usually stop at a 4000 grit King followed by dry newspaper for my folders and smaller fixed blades. My bigger knives and choppers get honed on the 6000 King. I don't usually go beyond that because I find anything higher removes too much of the "toothy" from my edge. Not to mention, that's yet another grit progression and the payoffs versus time spent start to really diminish.

FWIW, the Spydeerco UF and Norton 8000 waterstone seem to get more plugs than just about any other stones if you do some lurking on sites dedicated to straight razor users.
 
So, is the Spydie UF in your opinion mainly of interest for razors and knife applications where you want an extremely polished/refined edge, but it's not really necessary or adding a lot of practical performance value on a working/edc type of knife?
 
maximus83 said:
So, is the Spydie UF in your opinion mainly of interest for razors and knife applications where you want an extremely polished/refined edge, but it's not really necessary or adding a lot of practical performance value on a working/edc type of knife?
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It all depends on what kind of edge you're looking for. I'm sure there's no shortage of folks using it for their EDU knives, but for me that's a lot of effort for a minimal performance return over something a bit lower on the scale. In my experience it doesn't pay off especially when longevity of the edge and time spent polishing are factored in. That said, it does put on a very nice polish and has very good feedback for free-handing, I don't regret buying it, but these days I use waterstones almost exclusively. Hmmm, now that you mention it, I might know someone that has a Spiderco fine with one side lapped to a UF, for sale....:)
 
You can't just pick a finishing stone it must be from the same set of stones. The finishing stone is of little importance if you don't have a good lead-in, if you pick a UF ceramic make sure to have the fine and medium hones or you will not reach the hones full potential. Same for diamond, waterstones, Arkansas stones, or any other stone. The EEF is 8k on high wear steels and the higher the hardness and wear resistance the better the hone will work to polish and refine the edge. Take any hone outside its "comfort zone" or use it with a metal better suited to another stone type it then becomes a game of knowledge and skill vs tools.


If you put a EEF and a UF vs a waterstone grit progression it would be something like this: DMT EEF 8k mesh- 4000 grit. Spyderco UF ceramic- 8000-10,000 grit with the high gloss effect of a synthetic polisher.
 
knifenut1013 said:
You can't just pick a finishing stone it must be from the same set of stones. The finishing stone is of little importance if you don't have a good lead-in, if you pick a UF ceramic make sure to have the fine and medium hones or you will not reach the hones full potential. Same for diamond, waterstones, Arkansas stones, or any other stone. The EEF is 8k on high wear steels and the higher the hardness and wear resistance the better the hone will work to polish and refine the edge. Take any hone outside its "comfort zone" or use it with a metal better suited to another stone type it then becomes a game of knowledge and skill vs tools.


If you put a EEF and a UF vs a waterstone grit progression it would be something like this: DMT EEF 8k mesh- 4000 grit. Spyderco UF ceramic- 8000-10,000 grit with the high gloss effect of a synthetic polisher.
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I'm not sure I understand this post. Are you simply saying avoid excessive gaps in your grit progression, or that you should stick to one type of stone for your whole progression (e.g. all waterstones, all ceramics, all diamond, etc.)? If the latter, hopefully you can clarify some. I don't see what it would matter as long as you have an appropriate spacing between grits.

I get the part about diamonds being better for high-vanadium steels. Do they not work just as well on a simple carbon steel? What type of steels are ceramics and waterstones unsuited for, other than high-vanadium? FWIW, S30V does well for me on King stones. I am glad I have coarse DMT benchstones to set the bevels, but the waterstones polish it to as fine an edge as S30V will probably take.
 
I sometimes use a ceramic chef knife (Santoku) with a Zirconium carbide blade to touch up my edges. I use it like a finishing steel (tip pointed at the ceiling, edge facing away).
 
Robs92XJ said:
I'm not sure I understand this post. Are you simply saying avoid excessive gaps in your grit progression, or that you should stick to one type of stone for your whole progression (e.g. all waterstones, all ceramics, all diamond, etc.)? If the latter, hopefully you can clarify some. I don't see what it would matter as long as you have an appropriate spacing between grits.

I get the part about diamonds being better for high-vanadium steels. Do they not work just as well on a simple carbon steel? What type of steels are ceramics and waterstones unsuited for, other than high-vanadium? FWIW, S30V does well for me on King stones. I am glad I have coarse DMT benchstones to set the bevels, but the waterstones polish it to as fine an edge as S30V will probably take.
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I was interested in the same questions.
 
Razorsharp-Travis said:
I love the finish from a good ceramic abrasive :D
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This is what led me to include the Spyderco UF hones as one option in my original question. Though I now only use my SM for touch-up and refinement, I love the tactile feedback you get from a fine or better ceramic. Though they can be VERY slow to remove metal, in my experience if you take the time, they get excellent results. This would logically suggest they MIGHT be a good option for the "refinement" stage of sharpening.
 
Yes, stick with one type.

The problem comes when you think of grit as the same for all, its not and each stone maker tends to have their own numbers. I'm not even going to get into steels as that subject in itself is complex enough when just speaking of one steel.

I know you say you can but I have used kings, they were actually my first set of waterstones and S30V will not properly sharpen on king waterstones. That's another subject I'm not going to go into further.

I offer you my experience because I have bought and used too many stones to remember them all and sharpened so many steels from different makers I can tell you the differences in HT on the same type of steel. I'm not going to point you in the wrong direction.
 
Well the DMT EEF would be most consistent with my other DMT stones that I already use, and as I already observed (either here or in another thread), it's been found by a lot of folks that even though you may be able to ultimately get just as nice of an edge with certain ceramic hones, the diamond hones have one nice aspect: they seem to cut a little faster. Plus, there isn't a big difference in cost either way between an 8x3 diasharp EEF and an 8x3 Spydie UF (both can be had for in the $75 to $85 range).

I think I'll try the DMT EEF. Totally appreciate everybody's advice here, and I think I'd probably do very well with the Spydie too, but the DMT seems like it may have a slight "edge" :-). I pretty much get the reality: an EEF or other super-fine grit stone at around 8000 is WAY WAY beyond anything that is really necessary for a working knife edge. Still, I'm not getting it because it's practical or because I "need" it. If we restricted ourselves to those criteria, we'd all have just one or two knives and an old Arkansas stone and none of us would be here talking about it! I confess I'm interested in getting this high level of edge refinement mostly for fun and the satisfaction of doing it by hand. :-)

One thing that would be interesting to know, from the folks that have used any kind of super fine edge refinement hone, is this: Did you ever see your favorite super-fine hone (whatever you use for refinement, with grits greater than 4K) make a very significant impact on the actual cutting performance of your blade, beyond what you could achieve with say a typical 1000 to 1200 grit hone?
 
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