Best Goop for Stabilizing

H

Harry Jensen

Joined
Oct 10, 1998
Messages
224
Gents-
I've finally finished my testing of the products used for stabilizing organic materials.
Both these products accomplish (at least in my tank)what I want in a stable piece of material.
The first is made by Loctite Corp., and goes by the name of RESINOL 90C. MSDS & other info available at www.loctite.com
It is extremely viscuos, has an extended pot life when held in vac, and is activated by heating parts to 194F after vac & pressurization.
The nice thing about this stuff is you can see the penetration by splitting a block and exposing the cut sides to a black lite....there's a dye in the resin that shows up.
It's a bit pricey...and the minimum order size is 4 gallons......about $275 for 4 gallons & a 30 gram tube of activator, but it goes a Looooong way. Ratio of 1 gallon resin to 7.5 grams activator.
One other caveat.....if you order this product, make sure you do so in the winter. The activator needs to be kept refrigerated, & can only be shipped ground (out of Cincinatti IIRC). The first tube I got had sat in the back of a truck during 100F+ summer days, & leaked out all over the back end of the UPS truck...driver just tossed it out & wasn't worried about the damaged goods or filing a claim, so I figured he must not be too worried about breathing the fumes all day long neither ;-) Loctite shipped out another tube of activator...no problem!

The second product is made by a small outfit here in CA....it's called Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer. Made by the Smith Co., Industrial and Marine Synthetic Resins and Specialties, 5100 Channel Ave., Richmond, CA 94804....phone is 510-237-6842
They make 3 different grades of this stuff.....regular, fast, and cold weather. The regular gives you 16 hours pot life at 50F, buit I've had it in the soup for a couple days in the vac & pressure at that temp.
It is almost as viscuos as the Loctite material, and is made specifically to displace moisture and chemically restore stability to rotted woods. Price is around $40 for the 2 quart set-up...mix is 1:1

In my opinion, both products perform just as good as the stuff commercially stabilized.
Hope this helps,
Harry
 
Hi Harry

Sounds like there isn't much to choose between on the basis of price, thought the loctite works out a little cheaper, perhaps becasue of the larger quantity.

Loctite gave me the third degree about my vac chamber, knowledge of chemistry, intended uses, and such but, in the end they approved me and will be shipping to a loctite dealer nearby. They will dropship directly to my door if I'm using over 10 batches (40 gallons) per year. (not likely) I'm really looking forwrd to trying it.

Thanks

Rob!



------------------
Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
Ok but for us poor boys what ever happened to the wood hardener doing the job? What happened to the guy who said he nuked some pieces and put them in wood hardener for several days and let sit till they sank. He said he got good results and did not use a vacuum. I heated my pieces and put in jar and screwed lid on with vacuum guage on top and as it cooled over the course of 1 day it pulled 9-10 inches of its own vacuum. My problem is I was trying thinned out polyurethane and it did not seem to penetrate except in my pithy moose antler but in my purpleheart when I cut it open it looked the original color inside like nothing got in there. I was gonna go buy a 7.00 jar of Minwax hardener today and try the heating bit with it. That is what one guy said worked for him and alot cheaper than this other stuff. Any opinions. My next question is what happened to all these people that were posting on this topic a while back. Did everyone just disappear? Indian George where have you been. You have not responded to my e mails. Cory

------------------
" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
Yea thats me
biggrin.gif

I now have 3 knives on my bench waiting to be finished. All the slabs were nuked and put into Minwax Woodhardener. I will post the results when I get them done. Probably after christmas. Postscript: GENTLY heat the woodhardener solution before putting the nuked material into it. I use a hair dryer, rotating the jar as I do it. Any open flames is asking for a trip to the burn unit!
Be sure to let them dry lnger than you think is neccasary. I leave mine on a warm window sill for at least 3 days.
 
The main processes involved in getting a good stabilizing is thorough penetration, evaporation of the carrier, and hardness/bonding of the stabilant to the cellular structure of the wood fibers.

1. You NEED BOTH VACUUM AND PRESSURE to guarantee penetration, along with something of a low enough viscosity to be able to easily penetrate the media. a piece of black pipe, 2 couplings, 2 end plugs, and a nipple/petcock will do fine for a chamber ($10). An old reefer compressor works for both a vac pump and a compressor ($5-$10)...can't get much cheaper than that & you can pull a full 28" of vac, & 50-60 lbs of pressure. I pull vac for 1-5 days depending on the type of wood, bone, or horn, & same for pressure. Longer has never been a problem, but shorter sure has! (Alright, get yer minds out of the gutter!8))
Minwax is thin enough, but will it set up from the outside in, leaving the center still soupy? Maybe some drying time in a toaster oven might help...dunno. I DO KNOW that the Loctite stuff IS set off by heat
That Min-Wax is like $7 for 12 oz. which is pret near $75 a gallon...Resinol 90 is $70..just the 4 gallon minimum which makes it more expensive.
In theory it could be split smaller, but would be a royal PITA, due to the kicker needing refrigerating, and is ground ship & must be shipped separate....
Hope this helps,
Harry
 
Folks, all this is fine if you want to mess with all this yourself. I can get a lot of stuff stabilized for $275 and I know that it is done right when I get it back. Just an observation.....
 
C L

There are a number of issues here and cost is probably one of the minor ones. One of my major problems is shipping and Canada Customs. I have experienced both unacceptable delays and mysterious losses that really p*** me off.

There is also sole authorship, which, while few acheive it, we would all like to have.

Lastly, it would be nice to be able to do a single piece - test a few ways to get it better and enjoy the results. I'd like to think those of us dabbling in this area are pioneering a craft, much like custom knifemakers - while the professionals are akin to the factoy blade manufacturers.

My 2 cents

Rob!



------------------
Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
You make a good point Craig. My experiments with acrylic have been less than impressive. I appreciate this new info on the "goop". I think I will continue to play with it and I still have a problem with the cost of the pre-cut and stabilized slabs. But paying a little extra to have somebody else stabilize some of the materials I already have is beginning to sound appealing.

I've always believed in the law of diminishing returns and my time is at a premium right now. There's a point at which the time and aggravation combined with lack of space just aren't worth the hassle. Where do you send your stuff?

Terry
 
CL-
I can ppreciate the cost aspect....$275 will get you several pounds of stabilized material, BUT (and I emphasize the but), there are those of us who are hard headed, and want to do as much as we can in making our knives "OUR KNIVES".
I enjoy hunting out the unique and unusual swirls of burls, lengths of oosik, and "bovine ivory" that I have pickled (or attempted to pickle) over the past couple years. I compare it to heat treating my own blades, or for those who make hot & squish, putting together pattern welded billets. Electricity & kiln cost money, as does propane, metals, anvil, hammers, presses, etc. There's an art form to it, and initial investments of $$$$$$$ exist in in every aspect of knifemaking.
Don't mean to make no waves, just different strokes for diffrent folks.
 
Rob, Harry, others.....
No waves, just an observation. I send stuff out from time to time to have stabilized and I am more than pleased. I can appreciate the effort and I can much more appreciate the hard headedness. It takes that and much more to do what we do.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you sharing any and all information, I was just making an observation. If you get REALLY good at it, let me know
smile.gif


K&G is a good place to have stuff stabilized. Whether they send it out to someone else, I don't know.

By the way Rob! I know exactly what you mean by Canadian customs.....there was this hunting trip one time...




[This message has been edited by C L Wilkins (edited 12-25-2000).]
 
I think most of us that were trying different methods to stabilize wood have found one that works and are busy making knife handles.
I use 3 pints wood hardener and a 1\3 cup of a very thin epoxy sealer called rot fix in a 2 quart mason jar.Punched a hole in the lid ran a tube into it and can hand pump 20 inches of vacumn. When the bubbles stop or the wood sinks its done. 3-4 days.Here are some handle pics.
This works for me. I'm not trying to sell it or analyze it to death. It makes finishing the wood a lot easier.
Take Care
TJ
Top is KOA
Ironwood
Maple
View

Min wax wood hardener and the product called rot fix is by System Three and is availble through Woodcraft. Try www.woodcraft.com

[This message has been edited by TJ Smith (edited 12-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by TJ Smith (edited 12-27-2000).]
 
Hey Harry,

A couple of questions on process with the two mixtures you mentioned. Are these one shot chemicals, as in you mix them after the material has been in vac for a week, introduce them to the chamber, pressurize for a week, then after you drain it off it hardens and you have to throw it away? Or, can you reseal the used mix and do a second batch with it?

Also, how long do you leave the material and the stabilant under vac after you introduce the chemicals, or do you vac the materials dry, introduce the stabilant, and imediately pressurize?

This is great info, just what I have been waiting for somebody to figure out, Thanks
James

------------------
Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither, and in the end, seldom retain them!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by T. J.:
Hey Harry,

A couple of questions on process with the two mixtures you mentioned. Are these one shot chemicals, as in you mix them after the material has been in vac for a week, introduce them to the chamber, pressurize for a week, then after you drain it off it hardens and you have to throw it away? Or, can you reseal the used mix and do a second batch with it?

It's a one-shot deal for the wood, but I'm a tightwad SOB, so I made up a frame from masonite & wood 2" X 2", with a lid of masonite that sits down inside the frame. Painted the whole affair with melted parrafin.
I get coffee sacks (gunny sacks to you rednecks
wink.gif
) and cut them into squares to fit inside this frame...sometimes splash some green, black, or brown dyes on 'em to resemble "camo".
I empty the "used" goop into a wallpaper trough, toss in one of these pieces of burlap & let it soak up some juice, & lay it in the frame. I do this until the stack is 1/2" thick or so. Pour a little more resin on the top, squish it down with a roller (piece of pipe to R-N's), and put the lid on top...weight it down with some lead ingots.
Let it set for a week or so, pop it loose, cut into slabs & lay on the rack of my toaster oven & cure at 200F for about 45 minutes.....gunnysack micarta!


Also, how long do you leave the material and the stabilant under vac after you introduce the chemicals, or do you vac the materials dry, introduce the stabilant, and imediately pressurize?

I've tried it different ways, and usually vac dry, let set for a couple 3 days, flood the chamber with resin. Pull vac for another 2 days to a week (depends on density of the wood...experience will tell you how long, but better longer than shorter), then release vac & pressurize for another 2-3 days...may be a week...depends, see above.
I'll blow off the liquid, pressurize one more time for a few hours to a day (most likely overkill
wink.gif
), then pop the top, set the material on racks for a day, then run it thru the toaster oven as above.
I'm a big fan of Wayne Goddard's, and have found that scrounging stuff like toaster ovens, electric skillets, files, hammers, and other "junque" at yard & garage sales is almost as much fun as makin' the knives! You can find stuff CHEAP, and it beats the Missus being on the warpath for using her oven, electric frypan, crockpot, etc.
Hope this helps,
Harry

This is great info, just what I have been waiting for somebody to figure out, Thanks
James

</font>
Click to expand...

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top