Best price/qual folded steel dif tempered Katana?

The General

The General

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
Messages
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How much for this item? Will it take serious use? How come a Katana needs to be sent away for re-sharpening? A samuri would not do this in a battle, why do we do it? Art or function?

Thanks

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tenneson
Ranger motto
 
Originally posted by The General:
How much for this item? Will it take serious use? How come a Katana needs to be sent away for re-sharpening? A samuri would not do this in a battle, why do we do it? Art or function?

Thanks

W.A.
Click to expand...

That's a lot of questions together! Let me try to hit them separately.

1) A forged steel blade of folded construction will cost anywhere from several hundred US dollars (Chinese production sword to tens of thousands of dollars (traditionally made Japanese blade by top smith).

2) Folded steel is not necessarily superior in performance to monosteel. In fact, it is can be argued that folded steel is less desirable in a blade for ultimate performance. This is because the folds are welds, and every weld has the chance to be a bad one. Traditional Japanese swordmakers had to fold the blades to drive impurities out of their crudely smelted iron, while modern factory steels are pretty pure. A well made folded steel blade, such as martial arts-grade shinken from Japan or the blades Howard Clark makes from Meier pattern weld steel, will do just fine for martial arts purposes (though my preference is for Howard's work as better bang for the buck). Even the folded steel katana from the Chinese production makers could do quite well, so long as you're careful to inspect them. But monosteel is equal or better in performance.

3) Swords are sent away for sharpening because most of us do not have a qualified polisher living right next door. Certainly, you can make a katana blade sharp/sharper at home using a diamond hone or arkansas stone, but you cannot easily (if at all) maintain the Moran edge geometry while doing so. Traditional techniques maintain the traditional edge shape, which gives the blade a lot of its cutting power. Using nontraditional techniques on an antique or a nice modern nihonto can/will damage the blade (perhaps irreparably) and will lower its resale value.

4) A samurai did not need to send his blade away for polishing because he probably did have polishers living nearby. And I'm not sure what you mean about sending blades away in battle. Of course nobody sends their blade out for maintenance during battle--they wait until they get home. And they'd use (and beg, borrow, or steal to make sure they had) a spare while the polisher was at work.

5) Art vs function? I look at a well-made katana as serving both purposes. It should have the ability to function as intended--a cutting weapon. It should also be made with the graceful form of the traditional katana--smooth curvature, distal taper, and traditional edge geometry. If you like the traditional look of folded steel, that's on the art side, not the function side. If you look at the L6 blades that Howard Clark makes, they are not exactly traditional in make or surface aesthetics, but they are beautiful in their own way--and way tougher than any traditionally made blade. You can achieve art and function at the same time if you go with the right craftsmen!

[This message has been edited by Kenshi (edited 10-23-2000).]
 
Another thing to note is that when you sent it away to be serviced, it's not "sharpening" as much as "polishing." A katana needs to be specially polished to reveal the temper lines and weld patterns. It's an aesthetic thing (you don't do this for cheap blades), but also a spiritual thing. The katana is regarded as the soul of the warrior, and a polisher is therefore the polisher of souls. A good sword is an art piece with historical significance. A trained polisher is basically a professional art restorer. He cannot simply be technically proficient, but an expert on history and style of past sword smiths so that the restoration can be accurate.

Furthermore, whether a sword will take "serious" use depends on what you define as serious. Swords are cutting tools made for guys trained to use it, and will not be forgiving to abuse. We're used to thinking that a good sword has crowbar or axe like toughness, this simply is not true.

Any of the great antique swords, Japanese or European, can be destroyed by Cliff Stamp in about 5 minutes.

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 10-23-2000).]
 
YaY...the age-old questions that nobody can answer and make everyone happy with. It'd be a lot easier for me to say that swords don't exist...they're just figments of our imagination, and the ones around nowadays are all just hallucinations. Easier, but not true.

Anyways...As it was said, generally forge-welded steel is not likely going to yield superior performance. But again comes the definition of "performance" and the fact that a sword is not a knife, and is not to be compared to one. Forge welding does not make an inherently inferior sword unless serious welding flaws occur. Note I said serious. Some welding flaws are very minor and merely reflect the difficulty in creation. Monosteel will be better "bang for the buck" because there's significantly less work involved to create a blade of similar performance characteristics. Does it mean a forge-welded blade is unsuitable for use? Of course not.

Polishing/sharpening are part of the same process...in ****aji/foundation polish, you establish the lines of the sword and sharpen the edge. Before the Tokugawa period when wars were still fought on a large scale and swords needed sharpening during and after battles, there were polishers who did some foundation polishing to sharpen the edge and clean up the lines and stains and stuff. The higher grades of polish did not REALLY come about in popularity until later on. Also only during the long time of peace, Pax Tokugawa I guess I could call it, did the sword attain the status it has.

Nowadays responsible folks have real swords for 2 reasons...martial arts or collecting. Either case is simply a matter of nostalgia, just in different forms.

If you want a sword that will stand up to use (as in the intended purpose of the sword), the choices are vast. What is heavy use? Chopping wood? Hacking armor? Whacking concrete blocks? Or cutting through opponents or proper targets for tameshigiri? Are you competent in the use of a sword? Are you practicing a real sword art or just out to buy something to play with?

You have to be a bit more specific in order for us to answer your question properly.

Shinryû.
 
Japanese Swordmanship: Technique and Practice by Warner and Draeger contains an illustration of a samurai honing his own sword, using a large bench stone, and while apparently neither in the heat of combat nor removed from the comforts of civilization:
View

Is this an example of artistic license, or a portrayal of a very early period in the development of Nihon-to?
 
Is it far-fetched to believe a warrior could not learn foundation polish (of which the Japanese name is censored since the first 4 letters are a vulgar slang referring to feces)? I don't think so, and I believe it would not be all that uncommon for a warrior to be able to polish his own sword, particularly prior to the Edo period, since a "high art polish" was not something that was to be found very commonly early on. And foundation (or at least some of the foundation) polishing, while not a super-duper easy task, was likely much easier back then than it is now. Why? Because back then, kantei was likely not such a heavy influence of the polishing. Nowadays a polisher has to know exactly what he's dealing with...the school, the style, the smith if possible...and you have to understand what factors attribute that blade to its maker? They have to clean everything up while removing as little material as possible and maintaining the same cross section and everything. Then there's Shiage--final polishing to worry about nowadays too.

Polishers aren't bred for the job, they are trained for it. If a person wants to be trained for it, and if they can survive the training, that's great. It doesn't surprise me to hear of warriors "honing" their swords...all just part of upkeep.

Shinryû.
 
Nobody really answered his first question of how much should a good blade cost.

For an antique, figure on at least $1000 for a decent blade in poor polish. yes there are cheaper blades out there, especially machine made blades made during WWII. These often have a cherry blossom stamp on the blade and have military mountings. These are nice for collectors, and their values are continuing to rise, but they are not a folded steel.
For a nihonto, new blade, figure on around $6K for an Art blade made in Japn by a real swordsmith. for a good blade made in the USA, figure on $2k.
Best thing to do is to do a search on the web for " japanese swords" "katana" etc. Bugie.com sells bades. there is asite that sells direct from Japan, and the name escapes me now.

Edit: here's the link to the real sword available today. http://www.nosyuiaido.com/

[This message has been edited by GearHead (edited 10-24-2000).]
 
From the top, I know a lot about the Katana, I have studied S Turnbull and others work on the culture and ethos around this fantastical weapon. Yes weapon that is important. I have no formal training, but a few years of interst and learning. I want a blade that looks the part, but could also be described as a century blade. I was told this term was an indication of a blade of exeptional sharpness and strength. I want a blade that will cut the armour (brigande style, for example, the very tough yukino****a-do style) with a man in it. I don`t think this test was ever performed on this type of armour, more likely the poorer tosei gusoku of the Sengoku period.

I have no illusions that a Katana will do a Highlander or Bodyguard. I put that rubbish were it belongs. A contact of mine, claims he has seen a 400 year old blade tested. He claimed it would only cut on the draw, as a result of the polishing process. The demo involved the tester slapping the blade down into his palm, with moderate force. He was not cut at all. This is facinating if true. The sword sliced rice paper into very thin strips with no effort.

My concern over the re-sharpening procces is simply that in battle, cutting Iron armour will play havoc on a steel Katana. No arguments please, it would have damaged them, it must have. No steel can cut like that and still be razor sharp all day no way! If it is a long battle, what do you do? Well ok you use the bow as most battles really were won by.
rolleyes.gif
but that spoils the story...
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Point being, if it was a long battle, what do you do? Use anothers sword?
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what if it is not as good as yours and breaks?
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Not good at all! The Katana was so expensive I doubt many could afford to own more than one, the Wakizashi was also not a popular fighting blade really, was it? Myth again? So what was a samurui to do? Get out a bit of stone and give it a field tone up untill he could find a man to fix the job.

Oh yes another thing, if Japan is such a bad place for High carbon steel (rust) the effort to keep such a blade rust free must have been a nightmare. Now I am going into very scary places...
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... would a product like Marine Tuf Cloth damage my Katana? Gulp said it!
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My need is a battle capable blade, that would be considered good for its day and yes I figured it will cost up to £6000 (thats pounds) for a good modern trad made model. I have seen a couple of sites. But the truth is often stranger than the fiction. Anyone put me in touch with a person who has a proven history? Anyone bought one and knows the work is top class? When I finish my Degree I will get a decent job and this is right on the top of my five things to do/get in life list.

The Katana means a lot to me, the soul and ethos behind it move me greatly. To own a 'real' Katana would be a thing for which words are incapable of describing. Which considering I am studying English, shows you how damning and honest a statement this is. I honestly think I was born to own one, to respect it and look after it like a child. Over the top? Thats the way I feel about the Katana. Knives are an interest, a Katana is so very much more to me.

Sorry for the rant.
Thanks for the advice all.
W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tenneson
Ranger motto
 
There are many good blades that can be used for heavy tasks, but that relies more upon the ability of the swordsman. Now, what do you plan on USING the blade for? Cutting armor-clad tatami while not having any training?

So far you've limited your choices to about 50 that I can think of. If you want to whack at armor without training, you reduced it to about 3.

Shinryû.
 
The thing is, swords were always secondary weapons against serious armor. And you are correct, using a katana to cut armored foe will damage the blade. Since you plan on spending 6,000 pounds for a sword, I don't imagine you will do that regularly.

I would think most swords made in Japan the traditional way can meet your needs, provided you use the sword in the manner the Japanese designed them to be used. To that end you will need to take some classes on tamashigiri. The skill is not instinctive, it must be trained into you. Buying a katana and not learning how to use it and maintain it is like buying a $20,000 motorcycle before learning to ride. You run a risk of damaging your investment and jeopardizing your own safety. If you are looking to purchase a Nihon-to, try http://www.nosyuiaido.com I'm sure there are British importers if you look.

There are swords made to be tougher than the traditional katanas. In the US, Howard Clark makes some of the toughest swords around and still keep to traditional aesthetics. His work can be seen at http://www.bugei.com Nothing is indestructable of course.

Authenticly made modern katanas built to take abuse are few and far between. The reason is that the originals were somewhat delicate by modern standards. Though they were sufficiently strong for a 16th century samurai, real katanas cannot take the sort of use some 21st century users fancy them to take. And though an armor bashing katana can be made, it would compromise many other fine qualities that martial artists look for in a good sword.

Finally, katanas were not any more rust prone than other high carbon swords. It would be a challenge to keep an art finish intact during use, but martial arts swords are not given so lavish a polish. None-the-less, you should get used to taking care a sword. Collectors will use a traditional sword cleaning kit as often as needed to protect their investment. I would not use Tuff-Cloth because I don't want to leave any silicon residue in the saya.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent. But if abuse is what you had in mind, it's a simple matter of getting a low cost sword like that from Kriscutlery ( http://www.kriscutlery.com ). They don't have to look traditional to perform well, nor cost a lot of money to take abuse. In fact abuse swords are actually cheaper and easier to make. Good Luck.



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 10-26-2000).]
 
What am I going to use it for?
Well, nothing really!
Why own a Ferrari if you are not a racing driver? Because it is the best at what it does and you know it can perform. It also looks the business!

A Katana done properly is the business.
A Katana done properly will cut bamboo without chipping the edge! Well I bloody hope so If I spend that kind of cash! Heck I have a Wakizashi in 440a steel that is very very sharp and cuts without chipping. Yes I have even used it on 2" tree branches...No problems.

I was disgusted to think an expensive sword would chip as a result of cutting bamboo.

I want a sword to be the best as a Katana, well the best it can be for the money. I want to 'know' that it can be used as a war sword if needed, I need to know it it is the real deal. Call it vein but I saw a copy of a CR Serbenza the other day in a shop. The scales were good quality Aluminium with a 440a steel blade. It was cheap and looked very good. The fit and finish were nice for a copy. It fooled me for about 5 seconds. Did I buy it? No way, it was not the real deal so had no interest for me. Call it sobbery but I want the real thing in life, I know they will do a better job.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tenneson
Ranger motto
 
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