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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Better than M2 ?
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- Start date
OH YAH!
Luv dat M2 !
It's just a new steel I found out about & wondered if any knives have been made from it. Brittle as hell surely, but seems like it would hold an edge forever on something like a Falkniven A1 with the convex grind.
Got my AFCK Mini in M2 ordered btw. Found em for $60 here.
http://www.islandsecuritystore.com/...VRAW=benchmade&OVKEY=benchmade&OVMTC=standard
Thanks for the feedback.
Luv dat M2 !
It's just a new steel I found out about & wondered if any knives have been made from it. Brittle as hell surely, but seems like it would hold an edge forever on something like a Falkniven A1 with the convex grind.
Got my AFCK Mini in M2 ordered btw. Found em for $60 here.
http://www.islandsecuritystore.com/...VRAW=benchmade&OVKEY=benchmade&OVMTC=standard
Thanks for the feedback.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
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M-2 will also rust quite easily. Many of the best knife steels will.
They say that this steel can be easily sharpened? I doubt that very much. Look at the alloys that make up this steel
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ASP 2060
=========
C = 2.30
Cr = 4.0
Mo = 7.0
W = 6.5
V = 6.5
Co = 10.5
M2 for comparison
=================
C = 0.95-1.05
Cr = 3.75-4.50
Mo = 4.75-6.50
V = 2.25-2.75
W = 5.00-6.75
Co = 0
Mn = 0.15-0.40
Ni = 0.3
Si = 0.2-0.45
Big difference is that ASP 2060 vs. M2 has a lot more carbon, more moly, lots more vanadium, and a BUNCH of cobalt.
Now Keith and I ain't no metallurgists, but surely 2060 will be significantly more brittle than M2. Those high alloy compositions, tungsten and cobalt, seem to point in that direction, as does the high carbon content (for high carbide formation).
CPM 3V is quite tough and abrasion resistant, but is a pretty simple steel:
C = 0.8
Cr = 7.5
V = 2.75
Mo = 1.3
Thing that surprised me is that Crucible's comparison charts indicates that M2 @ Rc62 has same toughness as D2 @ Rc60, and M2 has maybe (eyeballing it) 40% better wear resistance vs. D2 at these same hardnesses. I figured M2 would be notably tougher than D2, and maybe dropping it 2 Rc points would make a big jump in toughness and drop wear resistance to about par with D2.
Similarly, M2 @ Rc62 has about 1/2 the toughness of A2 @ Rc60. (A2 seems to have a relative toughness peak at Rc60).
I sure wish Crucible would just publish some big matrices with abrasion resistance and toughness vs. Rc so that we armchair metallurgists could at least hold one variable constant.
=========
C = 2.30
Cr = 4.0
Mo = 7.0
W = 6.5
V = 6.5
Co = 10.5
M2 for comparison
=================
C = 0.95-1.05
Cr = 3.75-4.50
Mo = 4.75-6.50
V = 2.25-2.75
W = 5.00-6.75
Co = 0
Mn = 0.15-0.40
Ni = 0.3
Si = 0.2-0.45
Big difference is that ASP 2060 vs. M2 has a lot more carbon, more moly, lots more vanadium, and a BUNCH of cobalt.
Now Keith and I ain't no metallurgists, but surely 2060 will be significantly more brittle than M2. Those high alloy compositions, tungsten and cobalt, seem to point in that direction, as does the high carbon content (for high carbide formation).
CPM 3V is quite tough and abrasion resistant, but is a pretty simple steel:
C = 0.8
Cr = 7.5
V = 2.75
Mo = 1.3
Thing that surprised me is that Crucible's comparison charts indicates that M2 @ Rc62 has same toughness as D2 @ Rc60, and M2 has maybe (eyeballing it) 40% better wear resistance vs. D2 at these same hardnesses. I figured M2 would be notably tougher than D2, and maybe dropping it 2 Rc points would make a big jump in toughness and drop wear resistance to about par with D2.
Similarly, M2 @ Rc62 has about 1/2 the toughness of A2 @ Rc60. (A2 seems to have a relative toughness peak at Rc60).
I sure wish Crucible would just publish some big matrices with abrasion resistance and toughness vs. Rc so that we armchair metallurgists could at least hold one variable constant.
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If you look more closely at the Crucible data, you will see that M2 toughness peaks out at a slightly lower level that D2, it is the CPM M2 that is tougher than D2 at a couple of Rockwell points higher.
If you look at the specs for the CPM high speed steels, there are several in the same range as the ASP 2060. This culminates with CPM REX 121 that peaks out at HRC 70.5.
The main problem with these is grinding them. Note that the 2060 has a max annealed Brinnell hardness of 340. If you have ever ground CPM steels, S30V for instance at a Brinnell hardness of 255 is a bear to grind compared to D2 (Brinnell 210-215) which is not as easy as the lesser alloys like A2 and O1, you will get an idea of what this will be like.
The only prices I have seen for M2 are three times as high as D2 and twice as much or more than S30V. M2 will give some better wear resistance than D2, but it will not come close to S30V and it will readily rust.
The strength shown for the 2060 is in the ballpark for CPM 9V, 10V and S90V. they are markedly below the impact strength for M2, D2 and especially CPM 3V and S30V.
If you look at the specs for the CPM high speed steels, there are several in the same range as the ASP 2060. This culminates with CPM REX 121 that peaks out at HRC 70.5.
The main problem with these is grinding them. Note that the 2060 has a max annealed Brinnell hardness of 340. If you have ever ground CPM steels, S30V for instance at a Brinnell hardness of 255 is a bear to grind compared to D2 (Brinnell 210-215) which is not as easy as the lesser alloys like A2 and O1, you will get an idea of what this will be like.
The only prices I have seen for M2 are three times as high as D2 and twice as much or more than S30V. M2 will give some better wear resistance than D2, but it will not come close to S30V and it will readily rust.
The strength shown for the 2060 is in the ballpark for CPM 9V, 10V and S90V. they are markedly below the impact strength for M2, D2 and especially CPM 3V and S30V.
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Yeah, I was eyeballing the "Comparagraphs" on some of the material data sheets, the 3V sheet actually. They pick hardnesses all over the map and compare the steels. 3V at 58, M2 at 62, D2 at 60, etc.
Steve, have you found good, dense matrices of abrasion resistance and charpy values vs. hardness on Crucible's site somewhere?
This service center page is a good place to start... but isn't coughing up dense data.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash.cfm
Steve, have you found good, dense matrices of abrasion resistance and charpy values vs. hardness on Crucible's site somewhere?
This service center page is a good place to start... but isn't coughing up dense data.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash.cfm
ASP 2060 looks like it would make an excellent steel for wood working due to its high target hardness (up to HRC 69). Also wear resistance is very high. The most comparable steel I can think of is Crucibles 10V.
Toughness at those hardness levels would probably be low compared to most knife steels. Although the impact numbers on the data sheet looked good at first glance, they are for an un-notched sample, so they cant be compared directly to the impact numbers on the Crucible site.
I looked for a compareagraph on the Taylor site and I found this -
http://www.taylorspecialsteels.co.uk/pages/main/main3.htm
2060 is shown to have a little lower toughness than M2, which would be as expected. The strange thing is that it shows both to be significantly tougher than A2 and O1, so I would guess that something is wrong or that the toughness numbers are adjusted for hardness or some such.
Owen, the modulus of elasticity is just a measure of a materials stiffness (stress over strain). Heres a fairly simple explanation, if you are interested -
http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/materialproperties1.html
- Frank
Toughness at those hardness levels would probably be low compared to most knife steels. Although the impact numbers on the data sheet looked good at first glance, they are for an un-notched sample, so they cant be compared directly to the impact numbers on the Crucible site.
I looked for a compareagraph on the Taylor site and I found this -
http://www.taylorspecialsteels.co.uk/pages/main/main3.htm
2060 is shown to have a little lower toughness than M2, which would be as expected. The strange thing is that it shows both to be significantly tougher than A2 and O1, so I would guess that something is wrong or that the toughness numbers are adjusted for hardness or some such.
Owen, the modulus of elasticity is just a measure of a materials stiffness (stress over strain). Heres a fairly simple explanation, if you are interested -
http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/materialproperties1.html
- Frank
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As far as Crucible's website goes, I have never found any large tables detailing these properties. I just use the Data Sheets page and jump back and forth to compare the different steels.
Bohler/Uddeholm's North American site:
<www,bucorp.com/coldwork steels/>
is a good source for data on tool steels and Uddeholm's powder metal varieties.
I've done quite a bit of internet searches on steel properties, varieties and manufacturers. I have gotten to where i use Crucible and Uddeholm steels almost exclusively.
Bohler/Uddeholm's North American site:
<www,bucorp.com/coldwork steels/>
is a good source for data on tool steels and Uddeholm's powder metal varieties.
I've done quite a bit of internet searches on steel properties, varieties and manufacturers. I have gotten to where i use Crucible and Uddeholm steels almost exclusively.
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Frank, note that the units in the impact toughness diagram for 2060 are in Joules, not ft.lbs. If you convert them they will run in the low to mid teens, which is comparable to 10V and other hard brittle steels.
Thanks Steve, I did take that in to account, in fact Crucible lists most of their impact in both Joules and Ft-Lbs.
Note that the impact numbers given for 2060 are for a un-notched sample and that the type of impact test is not specified; it could be Charpy, Izod or something else, so the numbers are not compareable directly to Crucible's C-notch numbers, that's why I tried to find something on Taylor's site that would compare 2060 to some of the more common tool steels.
- Frank
Note that the impact numbers given for 2060 are for a un-notched sample and that the type of impact test is not specified; it could be Charpy, Izod or something else, so the numbers are not compareable directly to Crucible's C-notch numbers, that's why I tried to find something on Taylor's site that would compare 2060 to some of the more common tool steels.
- Frank
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"Carbide tipped" saw blades and such... it's tungsten carbide. Quite hard, quite brittle. 7-1/4" Circular saw blades are "throwaways" since carbide blades cost $7 to $12... high quality table saw and miter saw blades, e.g. a Forrest Woodworker II, you really need to send back to the maker or a specialized saw blade sharpener to re-edge these things.
Like ceramics, just hasn't really made it to knives in any big way. Carbide tooling is in super wide use in machine tool and machining industry, but the tool bits are put into service in a manner that avoids lateral stresses and sudden impacts, in general, to avoid the brittleness problems. I know very little about machine tools so I better stop.
Of course there are ceramic knives, Kyocera I think, other Japanese type kitchen knives. Maddog came to market with some supposedly softer (still very hard) and tougher ceramics. Search engine would probably yield something on performance.
Closest thing I've seen to using a hard element on knives were the Buck Cote knives... more of a surface coating.
Buck definitely uses a CATRA to test blade materials. This TiN stuff probably really worked... just didn't catch on, as knives got the final sharpening bevel on one side (like an Emerson V-grind with one sided final bevel), and Joe Blow, Buck customer, probably didn't get it or know what to do with it (speaking in huge generalities here).
Like ceramics, just hasn't really made it to knives in any big way. Carbide tooling is in super wide use in machine tool and machining industry, but the tool bits are put into service in a manner that avoids lateral stresses and sudden impacts, in general, to avoid the brittleness problems. I know very little about machine tools so I better stop.
Of course there are ceramic knives, Kyocera I think, other Japanese type kitchen knives. Maddog came to market with some supposedly softer (still very hard) and tougher ceramics. Search engine would probably yield something on performance.
Closest thing I've seen to using a hard element on knives were the Buck Cote knives... more of a surface coating.
I'm not sure Buck is offering this anymore. No hits on Buck's site for "Buck Cote" or "BuckCote".
Buck definitely uses a CATRA to test blade materials. This TiN stuff probably really worked... just didn't catch on, as knives got the final sharpening bevel on one side (like an Emerson V-grind with one sided final bevel), and Joe Blow, Buck customer, probably didn't get it or know what to do with it (speaking in huge generalities here).
Pure tungsten carbide is very brittle. Tungsten carbide tools usually consist of tungsten carbides in a cobalt matrix binder to reduce brittleness.
Heres a site with more details -
http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/tooling/archives/0101/0101bk_a.asp
- Frank
Heres a site with more details -
http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/tooling/archives/0101/0101bk_a.asp
- Frank
Cliff Stamp
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I have used steels similar, Phil Wilson has used more and higher alloys (CPM-15V, 125V) at 65+ HRC. Sharpening generally isn't a concern with proper hones (diamond rods) and optimal geometry (minimal width, correct angles from the maker).
Removing chips can be a problem as the machinability is low, but again the edge geometry if minimal will counteract the difficult of working the steel. I have broken visible pieces out of the edge of my CPM-10V utility blade and honed it back very quickly on a diamond stone as the edge was so narrow.
The main issue is understanding that this is a light use steel and thus should be optomized for light use cutting which means very thin with just a hint of a secondary edge bevel. Using it on a heavy chopper would not be overly sensible and result in a blade which chiped readily and was very difficult to sharpen.
Sharpening can also be enhanced with the use of hollows. Japanese woodworking tools can frequently have 64-65 HRC edges and they sharpen very nicely because the hollows insure minimal contact on the stones while honing which reduces the amount of work necessary.
As for edge retention, it is a complicated issue as edge retention depends strongly on what is being cut. The dominate factor can be hardness, wear resistance, corrosion reistance and even toughness and ductility. For a lot of work it is mainly hardness and thus M2 at 66 HRC will compete very well with almost any steel.
-Cliff
Removing chips can be a problem as the machinability is low, but again the edge geometry if minimal will counteract the difficult of working the steel. I have broken visible pieces out of the edge of my CPM-10V utility blade and honed it back very quickly on a diamond stone as the edge was so narrow.
The main issue is understanding that this is a light use steel and thus should be optomized for light use cutting which means very thin with just a hint of a secondary edge bevel. Using it on a heavy chopper would not be overly sensible and result in a blade which chiped readily and was very difficult to sharpen.
Sharpening can also be enhanced with the use of hollows. Japanese woodworking tools can frequently have 64-65 HRC edges and they sharpen very nicely because the hollows insure minimal contact on the stones while honing which reduces the amount of work necessary.
As for edge retention, it is a complicated issue as edge retention depends strongly on what is being cut. The dominate factor can be hardness, wear resistance, corrosion reistance and even toughness and ductility. For a lot of work it is mainly hardness and thus M2 at 66 HRC will compete very well with almost any steel.
-Cliff
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When the advertising blurb was promoting ease in sharpening, what they said was: "...yet it can be sharpened easily with a standard white aluminum oxide wheel." They are talking about sharpening using a bench grinder, not a typical knife hone. You would really want a thin edge if you wanted to maintain a blade using this material using you usual hones. I think of M2 as being a pain to sharpen in a thicker edge profile.
Cliff Stamp
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On a power grinder there isn't much you can't abrade. I have even sharpened ceramic knives (boker) on cheap AO belts. This was extensive work, reshaping a broken tip and removing large visible chips. It was slow, and a decent diamond belt would have been faster, but yes you could advertize that Bokers ceramic can be profiled with ordinary AO belts.
Jeff, yes, exactly on the profile. For knives with wide edge bevels, steels like M2 and D2 are not very efficient to sharpen. Awhile ago I put a full convex grind on a D2 blade (62 HRC full cryo). The blade is ~3/32 thick and is now a very efficient cutter, however sharpening it turns into basically polishing the primary grind. Horrible steel choice for that geometry.
These steels are made to be precision cutters, not heavy choppers, as long as the geometry is optomized for such purposes sharpening will not be a problem.
-Cliff
Jeff, yes, exactly on the profile. For knives with wide edge bevels, steels like M2 and D2 are not very efficient to sharpen. Awhile ago I put a full convex grind on a D2 blade (62 HRC full cryo). The blade is ~3/32 thick and is now a very efficient cutter, however sharpening it turns into basically polishing the primary grind. Horrible steel choice for that geometry.
These steels are made to be precision cutters, not heavy choppers, as long as the geometry is optomized for such purposes sharpening will not be a problem.
-Cliff