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BG-42 vs ATS-34
- Thread starter Dman
- Start date
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Jim Rasmussen
Idyllwild CA
- Joined
- May 26, 2000
- Messages
- 1,922
ATS-34 and BG-42 are pretty close in composition. Both are stainless range ball bearing steels developed for jet turbines. That means they are supposed to be "clean" steels, free of impurities, consistently made. BG-42 probably still is. 154CM is Crucible's original offering (US made) and ATS-34 is a Japanese (Hitachi) copy of 154CM. They are nearly identical, some believable custom makers say 154CM is now cleaner and tends to work just a bit better.
BG-42 contains 1.2% Vanadium where ATS34/154Cm contain none. This is the primary benefit of BG-42 over ATS-34.
BG-42 contains an extra 0.1% more carbon, so there is more available to bind with vanadium and molybdenum in making carbides. (That doesn't sound like much, but it helps a bit).
BG-42 also contains 14.5% chrome, which isn't any big deal at an extra 0.5% over ATS34. It may be true, however, that since there is Vanadium in the BG-42 mix, there is more free chrome, unbound in carbides, and so corrosion resistance may be better than the 0.5% bump in chrome would indicate.
BG-42 contains maybe 0.1% more manganese...I don't know if that is enough to affect that much performance in heat treat.
BG-42 is really superior to ATS-34 in nearly every way WHEN optimally heat treated. Not dramatically so, but enough so that it is simply a better steel for knives. Of course, that comes at a higher prices, and only you can decide if a say a nominal 20% increase in performance is worth the price premium.
One reason more people haven't moved to BG-42 is that it has an austenizing temperature that is about 200 degrees higher (from my memory, and I'm not a maker...) than most of the standard heat treat ovens can provide, so makers have to upgrade or replace their furnaces to heat treat it correctly.
Chris Reeve is one of the makers who has championed BG-42 recently (although Loveless and others used it years ago). So has Greg Lightfoot. Chris believes his heat treat leaves BG-42 in a position to compete closely with CPM420V in cutting performance while being a bit tougher at a given hardness, and that means he can run it a point or two harder than CPM420V (he runs BG-42 at Rc60). When all else is equal, harder knife blades means they hold an edge longer, as a general but very true rule. Too hard, and brittleness creeps in however.
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Manganese (Mn) is found in most steels as a deoxidizer and to give it the ability to be hot rolled or forged. Manganese also imparts responsiveness during the heat-treatment. It increases toughness and hardenability.
Vanadium (V) is the hardest of the three main carbide formers and in general is the most desireable of the premium elements in alloys used for knife blades. It is an expensive element to produce but it is the one of the most common elements used to increase the strength, hardness, and wear-resistance of a steel. Vanadium carbides in a steel offer excellent resistance to abrasion, create a finer grain structure, and increase its edge-holding properties. Finer grain structure is generally a good thing in a knife... the steel tends to be a bit easier to sharpen, and it takes a finer, more shavin' sharp edge as well (subjectively). Vanadium carbides run Rc 82-85, and so are harder and more wear resistant than the second and third main formers, Tungsten carbides and Molybdenum carbides which run Rc 72-77.
Molybdenum (Mo) is the third of the three strongest carbide formers. It is added to increase strength, ductility, and greatly increase the depth of hardness, which in simple terms means the knife blades will have a uniform hardness out of heat treat even if they are very thick in cross section. Molybdenum was not widely employed as an alloying agent until World War I, when it was used to toughen armor plating. It also gives air-hardening steels the ability to be quenched in air.
Chromium (Cr) is the fourth strongest of the carbide formers, but is only Rc 65 range in hardness. It increases the depth of hardness and is the main element that gives a steel the ability to resist corrosion and oxidation. In order for a steel to be classified as stainless it must have a minimum of 13.0% chrome. Chromium is a "strong" carbide former in the absence of the other "big 3" carbide formers, and many steels rely on it to form their carbide matrix. (e.g. 420HC, AUS-6, 12c27, GIN-1/G2).
[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 02-21-2001).]
BG-42 contains 1.2% Vanadium where ATS34/154Cm contain none. This is the primary benefit of BG-42 over ATS-34.
BG-42 contains an extra 0.1% more carbon, so there is more available to bind with vanadium and molybdenum in making carbides. (That doesn't sound like much, but it helps a bit).
BG-42 also contains 14.5% chrome, which isn't any big deal at an extra 0.5% over ATS34. It may be true, however, that since there is Vanadium in the BG-42 mix, there is more free chrome, unbound in carbides, and so corrosion resistance may be better than the 0.5% bump in chrome would indicate.
BG-42 contains maybe 0.1% more manganese...I don't know if that is enough to affect that much performance in heat treat.
BG-42 is really superior to ATS-34 in nearly every way WHEN optimally heat treated. Not dramatically so, but enough so that it is simply a better steel for knives. Of course, that comes at a higher prices, and only you can decide if a say a nominal 20% increase in performance is worth the price premium.
One reason more people haven't moved to BG-42 is that it has an austenizing temperature that is about 200 degrees higher (from my memory, and I'm not a maker...) than most of the standard heat treat ovens can provide, so makers have to upgrade or replace their furnaces to heat treat it correctly.
Chris Reeve is one of the makers who has championed BG-42 recently (although Loveless and others used it years ago). So has Greg Lightfoot. Chris believes his heat treat leaves BG-42 in a position to compete closely with CPM420V in cutting performance while being a bit tougher at a given hardness, and that means he can run it a point or two harder than CPM420V (he runs BG-42 at Rc60). When all else is equal, harder knife blades means they hold an edge longer, as a general but very true rule. Too hard, and brittleness creeps in however.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Manganese (Mn) is found in most steels as a deoxidizer and to give it the ability to be hot rolled or forged. Manganese also imparts responsiveness during the heat-treatment. It increases toughness and hardenability.
Vanadium (V) is the hardest of the three main carbide formers and in general is the most desireable of the premium elements in alloys used for knife blades. It is an expensive element to produce but it is the one of the most common elements used to increase the strength, hardness, and wear-resistance of a steel. Vanadium carbides in a steel offer excellent resistance to abrasion, create a finer grain structure, and increase its edge-holding properties. Finer grain structure is generally a good thing in a knife... the steel tends to be a bit easier to sharpen, and it takes a finer, more shavin' sharp edge as well (subjectively). Vanadium carbides run Rc 82-85, and so are harder and more wear resistant than the second and third main formers, Tungsten carbides and Molybdenum carbides which run Rc 72-77.
Molybdenum (Mo) is the third of the three strongest carbide formers. It is added to increase strength, ductility, and greatly increase the depth of hardness, which in simple terms means the knife blades will have a uniform hardness out of heat treat even if they are very thick in cross section. Molybdenum was not widely employed as an alloying agent until World War I, when it was used to toughen armor plating. It also gives air-hardening steels the ability to be quenched in air.
Chromium (Cr) is the fourth strongest of the carbide formers, but is only Rc 65 range in hardness. It increases the depth of hardness and is the main element that gives a steel the ability to resist corrosion and oxidation. In order for a steel to be classified as stainless it must have a minimum of 13.0% chrome. Chromium is a "strong" carbide former in the absence of the other "big 3" carbide formers, and many steels rely on it to form their carbide matrix. (e.g. 420HC, AUS-6, 12c27, GIN-1/G2).
[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 02-21-2001).]