After goin nuts being cooped up in the house I finally decided to get out in the woods and have some fun even if it is snowy and cold. My Bhojpure stays sheathed on my LBE,ready for such use. When I checked it today I was shocked to notice several long hairline crack in the handle that weren`t there when I put it away. What`s the best thing to do with it so they don`t get worse. This one is a user but it`s still too pretty to have to tape the handle or something. If it ever came loose I`d make a new grip from a block of canvas micarta but I`d rather keep it as is. Marcus
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Bhojpure handle cracking...help :-)
- Thread starter Marcus
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 8, 1999
- Messages
- 1,760
Cracks are usually temperature related. The best way to fix a crack (both aesthetically and functionally) is to buy some colored epoxy (available at a hardware store or through a gun dealer). It makes the handle "good as new."
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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
Temperature vs. low humidity: the principle is the same for all organic things. Wood will crack to relieve tension caused by shrinkage from extremely low humidity. This happens especially in winter time, with moisture removed from the air by forced air heat or below freezing temperature. The same thing can occur in the summer when the air conditioner is running a lot. (both situations can crack wooden instruments, and cause necks to straighten too much, whereas moisture will cause bowing)
I wish Hooflex could be used on wood.
I wish Hooflex could be used on wood.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Messages
- 578
A tip given to me under likened circumstances: use hose clamps. Gives a nice even pressure, especially if you use multiple clamps. You also don't need to find the right clamping angle or location, and it closes cracks nicely.
I wonder...if cracks appear due to stress relieved by shrinkage from lack of humidity, is the best repair to fill the crack or to glue and clamp (possibly not relieving the stress, but adding to it)?
For example, such repairs or restoration work done to wooden musical instruments caused by low humidity is done by filling the cracks (splicing in like wood or using acousticly transparant epoxy). But stress here is a bigger deal, as it kills sound. However, we don't want the horn to have more stress fractures, so it might be good to go for maximum stress reduction and fill without clamping.
It's surprising what can be achieved with good quality glues (this is key), matching color, and polishing. There are techniques of using super glue for cosmetic lacquer finish repair (it takes some practice).
I haven't done a whole lot with horn yet (twice), but have gotten real pleasing results with a cracked rosewood chainpure handle (a special purchase). After injecting the glue from the bottom of the crack up, some fine matching wood dust was mixed into the surface glue. I kept the tung oil finish matte instead of gloss and you just can't tell, and it's still hard to find even if you're looking for it.
Like Craig says, the colored epoxies show great promise for gaps of sufficient size, and a good super glue is hard to beat if applied properly. Good polishing is another key to nice cosmetics. Most folks are very surprised this stuff is used in valuable instrument restoration with great results. For example, super glue hardens almost instantly when dripped onto baking soda (a hardening catalyst), and can be built up in layers for near-perfect bone crack repairs (especially good for the nuts and bridge saddles of fretted instruments). But there's technique to it and some learning curve.
Marcus, I can send you some Wec Cels (little microsurgical dabbing sponge spears to prevent smearing) and give you a few tips if interested. Just e-mail me.
Forumites, do feel free to disagree (maybe we can all learn something here)....Dan
[This message has been edited by Lt. Dan (edited 02-14-2001).]
For example, such repairs or restoration work done to wooden musical instruments caused by low humidity is done by filling the cracks (splicing in like wood or using acousticly transparant epoxy). But stress here is a bigger deal, as it kills sound. However, we don't want the horn to have more stress fractures, so it might be good to go for maximum stress reduction and fill without clamping.
It's surprising what can be achieved with good quality glues (this is key), matching color, and polishing. There are techniques of using super glue for cosmetic lacquer finish repair (it takes some practice).
I haven't done a whole lot with horn yet (twice), but have gotten real pleasing results with a cracked rosewood chainpure handle (a special purchase). After injecting the glue from the bottom of the crack up, some fine matching wood dust was mixed into the surface glue. I kept the tung oil finish matte instead of gloss and you just can't tell, and it's still hard to find even if you're looking for it.
Like Craig says, the colored epoxies show great promise for gaps of sufficient size, and a good super glue is hard to beat if applied properly. Good polishing is another key to nice cosmetics. Most folks are very surprised this stuff is used in valuable instrument restoration with great results. For example, super glue hardens almost instantly when dripped onto baking soda (a hardening catalyst), and can be built up in layers for near-perfect bone crack repairs (especially good for the nuts and bridge saddles of fretted instruments). But there's technique to it and some learning curve.
Marcus, I can send you some Wec Cels (little microsurgical dabbing sponge spears to prevent smearing) and give you a few tips if interested. Just e-mail me.
Forumites, do feel free to disagree (maybe we can all learn something here)....Dan
[This message has been edited by Lt. Dan (edited 02-14-2001).]
Well,I did the unthinkable.
I glued the cracks with CA, then wrapped the handle and bolsters with a layer of hockey stick tape, (BTW I noticed the buttcap is getting loose too). I liked the slightly thicker grip but didn`t like the tacky feel or cruddy look so I wrapped it tightly with coarse thin nylon cord and glued the ends in place. Now the grip is big enough for my hands (also big) and very comfy. It has a kinda business like look to it now. I miss the classy look but at least now I won`t have to worry about dinging up the brass or horn on a rock or something while working around camp. Now I just need a WW3 style kydex sheath for it.
Marcus
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Messages
- 578
Dear Dan,
Okay, I disagree. Just thought I'd take you up on the opportunity.
Rene
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Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer
Okay, I disagree. Just thought I'd take you up on the opportunity.
Rene
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Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Messages
- 578
Dan,
No, I think you expressed yourself quite well, and you made no errors. I just thought I'd be contrary. It's also a subject I know nothing about.
But, you did say "feel free to disagree", and I thought I'd take you up on the offer
.
Rene
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Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer
No, I think you expressed yourself quite well, and you made no errors. I just thought I'd be contrary. It's also a subject I know nothing about.
But, you did say "feel free to disagree", and I thought I'd take you up on the offer
Rene
------------------
Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer
DD, I often need a little help to keep me from taking myself too seriously. Thanks! This blind hog sometimes has to do some extra rooting to find acorns.
Marcus, how did the glue job turn out?! Could the loosened buttcap have come from the horn shrinking in every direction? (including lengthwise)
Epoxy is best if the gap is big enough. Sometimes the space is too small to allow entry of a hypo needle of sufficient bore size to inject the glue. Then it works to stick the tip of the syringe (without needle) on the crack and force it in until epoxy oozes from all around the buttcap. Save yourself a crisis by using glue that gives you a long working time (24 hrs). And using the smallest syringe possible will give much more leverage in forcing the stuff through (making a huge difference). These lessons came the hard way.
If the gap is too small for epoxy to flow into, then super glue (which is not a good volume filler) is the ticket. Also, a warmed khukuri and glue helps penetration (tip from a real knifemaker).
Yes, Virginia, I really do welcome differing opinions. How can you forumites expect me to learn anything new if you allow me to stay stuck in my own notions?....Dan
Marcus, how did the glue job turn out?! Could the loosened buttcap have come from the horn shrinking in every direction? (including lengthwise)
Epoxy is best if the gap is big enough. Sometimes the space is too small to allow entry of a hypo needle of sufficient bore size to inject the glue. Then it works to stick the tip of the syringe (without needle) on the crack and force it in until epoxy oozes from all around the buttcap. Save yourself a crisis by using glue that gives you a long working time (24 hrs). And using the smallest syringe possible will give much more leverage in forcing the stuff through (making a huge difference). These lessons came the hard way.
If the gap is too small for epoxy to flow into, then super glue (which is not a good volume filler) is the ticket. Also, a warmed khukuri and glue helps penetration (tip from a real knifemaker).
Yes, Virginia, I really do welcome differing opinions. How can you forumites expect me to learn anything new if you allow me to stay stuck in my own notions?....Dan
The glue job was nothing to write home about. The cracks are hairline,no gap so I just glued over then to help keep them from getting bigger. It`s quite possible that the loose butcap is a result of the horn shrinking. It`s not very loose,just enough to notice. I doubt it`s from use. It`s chopped a lot of squaw wood and brush but I seldom use it "hard". I LOVE the blade geometry,balance, and it holds and edge really well so I`m not too upset about the handle. I`ll probably fit it with a nice canvas micarta handle when I get the time and ambition. Marcus
Thanks for the update, Marcus.
Pete Frye (knife maker extraordinairre) has an old GH SN1 that was tested to the max. The buttcap is off due to the severe beating (there oughta be a law). You just can't imagine anything surviving such a trial. Even though the handle is loose and chipped, he feels confident using it as is for splitting firewood and all kinds of ugly tasks. He won't fix it up because he likes it just the way it is. I trust his expert opinion and feel better about a buttcap that's a little loose.
However, if you can get some good glue in there before the gap gets dirty, it might be fixed for good. I like micarta, too, and am on the verge of a mondo project...will let you know what comes of it, and I hope you'll do the same with yours....Dan
Pete Frye (knife maker extraordinairre) has an old GH SN1 that was tested to the max. The buttcap is off due to the severe beating (there oughta be a law). You just can't imagine anything surviving such a trial. Even though the handle is loose and chipped, he feels confident using it as is for splitting firewood and all kinds of ugly tasks. He won't fix it up because he likes it just the way it is. I trust his expert opinion and feel better about a buttcap that's a little loose.
However, if you can get some good glue in there before the gap gets dirty, it might be fixed for good. I like micarta, too, and am on the verge of a mondo project...will let you know what comes of it, and I hope you'll do the same with yours....Dan
I haven`t had trouble with horn. Wood cracked on me. I discounted the price on that one.
I got mine before the demand and they were curing the material.
That is the problem now. Yankees buy so many that the kamies don`t cure the handle material for years like they used to.
For the discriminating, they killed the goose. One has to be very picky about kuks now.
A syringe is a great glue tool. You can liberate some from the VA, or buy them at the feed store.
Be advised; don`t wander into a bar in some jurisdictions with a syringe. It may be taken wrongly.
I got mine before the demand and they were curing the material.
That is the problem now. Yankees buy so many that the kamies don`t cure the handle material for years like they used to.
For the discriminating, they killed the goose. One has to be very picky about kuks now.
A syringe is a great glue tool. You can liberate some from the VA, or buy them at the feed store.
Be advised; don`t wander into a bar in some jurisdictions with a syringe. It may be taken wrongly.
It might be revealing if it could be known which handle material is most prone to cracking. There are other factors than simply being being horn or wood (grain density is yet another). Sure, cure time is important, but the weather conditions (temp and humidity) in which the handles are worked and set has got to come into play, too. Nepal does have a monsoon season, doesn't it?
Here's some proof of this theory: Wood for an instrument can be dried for 100+ years, but still absorbs moisture from the air and swells accordingly. If it's worked in a humid environment and glued in place, it has no place to go when exposed to radically drier weather. Shrinkage will occur as the moisture content decreases and the stress will only be relieved by cracking if it's not allowed the freedom of movement to change shape with the weather.
The converse will happen when materials swell from excess humidity. The glue joints will often pop loose under the strain. That's why the old, primitive hide glue (made from animal hooves) is so effective on violins and such. The glue is weak enough to come loose with extereme humidity variations, thus often avoiding cracks, relieving the stress that competes with string vibration and kills tone, but might require some re-glueing on occasion. (It's also water soluble, which is key to taking things apart when needed.)
Unfortunately, khukuri handles have no such safety valve for stress. John Powell's excellent old khukuri photos on the forum show both materials cracking. It would be interesting to know his opinion on the subject. Conversations with others who have handled far more khukuris than I have not given a clear answer.
For these and other obvious reasons, the kamis must surely know best, as they still use both horn and wood. The khukuri is their heritage...and who am I to tell them their business, just because I may think I fully understand it my knowledge is actually without depth.
Was it Will Rodgers who said something about listening and let folks wonder about my ignorance, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt? As usual, I need some help....Dan
Here's some proof of this theory: Wood for an instrument can be dried for 100+ years, but still absorbs moisture from the air and swells accordingly. If it's worked in a humid environment and glued in place, it has no place to go when exposed to radically drier weather. Shrinkage will occur as the moisture content decreases and the stress will only be relieved by cracking if it's not allowed the freedom of movement to change shape with the weather.
The converse will happen when materials swell from excess humidity. The glue joints will often pop loose under the strain. That's why the old, primitive hide glue (made from animal hooves) is so effective on violins and such. The glue is weak enough to come loose with extereme humidity variations, thus often avoiding cracks, relieving the stress that competes with string vibration and kills tone, but might require some re-glueing on occasion. (It's also water soluble, which is key to taking things apart when needed.)
Unfortunately, khukuri handles have no such safety valve for stress. John Powell's excellent old khukuri photos on the forum show both materials cracking. It would be interesting to know his opinion on the subject. Conversations with others who have handled far more khukuris than I have not given a clear answer.
For these and other obvious reasons, the kamis must surely know best, as they still use both horn and wood. The khukuri is their heritage...and who am I to tell them their business, just because I may think I fully understand it my knowledge is actually without depth.
Was it Will Rodgers who said something about listening and let folks wonder about my ignorance, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt? As usual, I need some help....Dan
Big Bob, I appreciate your setting me straight. I get my Ro(d)gers mixed up and misspelled his name, too...it's Jimmie Rodgers, Roy Rogers, and Will Rogers (I think). Although Will couldn't yodel like Jimmie or ride like Roy, he said some neat things. My favorite being that some sits and thinks, and some just sits. (Hope I didn't blow it again!)