Bio-Quench Redux

J

jackrabbitslim

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Jan 28, 2008
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I've been having trouble with finding a quality quenchant. Darren Ellis is out, nobody else is volunteering (not that I blame them ;)) and the manufacturers don't seem to be interested in selling to little guys. But all hope is not lost! I exchanged a few e-mails with D. Scott MacKenzie PhD., who works for Houghton and is also a member and poster on Don Fogg's forum. He got me in touch with a local (as in, only an hour away) distributor of Houghton products. The distributor said I could buy small quantities like 5 gallons but that I'd pay a substantial premium because they'll have to break a drum for it. So, I wondered if anybody else wanted to get in on that. I'm looking at getting Houghton's Bio-Quench. Here is what Scott says about it. "Bio-Quench 700 is a vegetable oil based quenchant which has excellent quenching properties and a nearly perfect cooling curve – unstable vapor phase; quick nucleate boiling phase, and high nucleate boiling to convection transition temperature. The Bio-Quench 700 has a nearly perfect curve for just about all steels. It is fast where it needs to be, and slow where it needs to be. Another advantage is the very high flash temperature. This allows the oil to be used at elevated temperatures such as 250 or 275F. So you can do mar-quenching if needed to minimize distortion – and this is important for the high hardenability steels like 4160 or 5160. It will work fine for O1." It sounds like the bee's knees. I'm currently waiting for a price from the distributor. My question is, does anybody else want in on this? I'll post the price as soon as I get it and I'll ship it wherever for cost plus shipping. I just don't want to get reamed for buying 5 gallons instead of 55. Any interested parties?
 
I'm interested also, and would like to know more about it.
Do you have a link to more info on Boi-Quench...?
I don't see it on Houghton's web site.

Thanks...
 
Also interested (depending on price and shipping of course).
 
Hi Gavin (& Friends),

I am interested, but will need to know more about the product, as well as costs. I haven't been able to actually find any reference to it on the Houghton websites, with the exception of a PDF brochure here: http://www.houghtonintl.com/ProdutPa...ductpageid=254. Unfortunately it's just marketing PR and not real specs though. The MSDS is, of course, valuable info, but again, not specs.

Keep us posted on what you find out.

Thanks for your efforts, Phil
 
It sounds like a winner to me and Dr. Scott is the guy to talk to about the curves on quenchants. However, and please don't turn this into a Cashen vs. MacKenzie thing because it is not, Scott is a friend whose input I value immensely, but I see a little oversight here:

jackrabbitslim said:
... Another advantage is the very high flash temperature. This allows the oil to be used at elevated temperatures such as 250 or 275F. So you can do mar-quenching if needed to minimize distortion – and this is important for the high hardenability steels like 4160 or 5160...
Click to expand...

Lower carbon means higher Ms, the two steels mentioned will begin hardening around 475F or perhaps higher and reach 90% M above the 250F to 275F region. This would leave the vast majority of martensite formed exposed to continuous quench cooling and little for an equalization at the quenchant temperature before a slow cool where autotempering could occur. At 275F the best one could hope for is a slight stabilization such as one may get from a snap temper. Thus I am not sure I would bother with the extra heating of the oil since martempering's benefits are gained by halting the cooling at or above Ms to equalize and then allowing a gentler cooling as it forms. I recently encountered this with some samples I was working with for a client and found a much wider range of hardness from traditional quench to martempering, then one day while on the road it hit me "sheez Kevin you dumb@$$, Ms is different!" Much more martensite was forming in this steel before I interrupted the cooling thus much more of it was exposed the auto-tempering effects; significantly lowering its Rockwell when compared to the same piece quenched to room temp.

Variables, variables and more variables... we could automate the system with every idiot proof method and factor we can think of but as soon as one of countless variables gets introduced we are back to square one.:(

The biggest is that anytime the steel chemistry changes the entire blademaking recipe has to account for this, this is why the guys who stick to one steel and learn it well find more success, it is also why I stress that folks find steels that are deeper hardening to use with any martempering/marquenching technique. Find a steel that can handle a slightly slower cooling from 1100F to 900F and then will harden in the range that you expect it to, next find the quenchant designed to be heated and still work right in that range.

10XX series for example, are not well suited to martempering/marquenching proper (i.e. hot oils or even salts), the best way I have found to approximate this effect with theses steels is the timed or interrupted quench into normal temperature fast oil.
 
This is great! I'm very pleased with the feedback so far. I'm just antsy about hearing from the distributor (not that I expect a call on Sunday ;)).

Kevin, you're saying (and I'm paraphrasing), essentially, that you would keep Bio-Quench at 130 degrees (if that's what you meant for "normal temperature fast oil") not only for quenching simple steels but also for higher alloy stuff like 5160 or O1. Is that correct? Am I over-reaching here? Have you tried this stuff? I am really optimistic about it but I don't want to get burned (figuratively speaking) either. Is it too much to expect Bio-Quench 700 to work for both deep- and shallow-hardening steels?
 
jackrabbitslim said:
This is great! I'm very pleased with the feedback so far. I'm just antsy about hearing from the distributor (not that I expect a call on Sunday ;)).

Kevin, you're saying (and I'm paraphrasing), essentially, that you would keep Bio-Quench at 130 degrees (if that's what you meant for "normal temperature fast oil") not only for quenching simple steels but also for higher alloy stuff like 5160 or O1. Is that correct? Am I over-reaching here? Have you tried this stuff? I am really optimistic about it but I don't want to get burned (figuratively speaking) either. Is it too much to expect Bio-Quench 700 to work for both deep- and shallow-hardening steels?
Click to expand...


Well since each steel will have it's own quench rates that it will respond best to I feel that it would be hard to find a one, universal quenchant for all. I really doubt you will get burned, if Scott MacKenzie says it is good stuff I think you could take that to the bank. I am also eager to see folks giving Houghton products a try since I think the adherence to Park/Heatbath with their rather exclusionary and unfriendly approach, is limiting the knifemaking scene and the possibilities. I think it would be healthier for us all to expand our horizons with new products.
 
Thanks, Kevin. How about the temperature thing? You mentioned quenching to room temperature in your previous post but I assumed you meant relative to martempering, i.e. 120-130 degrees as opposed to 275 or higher.
 
I'm interested, as well, depending on actual price and shipping cost. Like the other guys, I'd like a little more info as well. I work primarily with 10xx and W series steels and have been waiting a while for source of a quality quenchant.

Todd
 
Thanks, Kevin. I am really glad to be able to take advantage of all the practical scholarship available on this forum. I hope I can MEANINGFULLY contribute some day! :D
 
One day I want to try "real" quench oil. So maybe depending on price. I see you're in Great Bend, there is a blacksmithing group that meets the first saturday of the month. There might be some interested there as well. The name just changed for the group from Great Plains Blacksmiths Assn. to Central States Metal Artisans (I think that is right). And if memory serves the next meeting is in the Haysville shop. If you want more info on the group, there is a website
http://gpba.abana-chapter.com/

ron
 
Thanks Ron! I don't know if I can make the next meeting but I'll sure try. I thought I was alone here. It's good to find out otherwise. :D
 
I was wondering what's it made of,I mean what if it's just over priced peanut oil,does it have secret ingredients,like rendering's of Nubian Slave
 
From what I understand, Bio Quench is a canola oil base with other acids and additives to make the oil perform to it's specifications.

I finally heard back from my Houghton rep and he told me Bio Quench is more expensive than the Quench K. I'd rather get the Bio Quench. It's faster, greener and looks to be a good match to 1084 and 1095.

Any word on the order?
 
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