Black Arkansas, is it really worthwhile?

G

Grizz299

Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
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The stone (10 x 3 x 1) is a pleasure to use. Perhaps you have to be a fanatic to understand that, but it's smooth and your strokes seem to improve and flow.
But does it work and is it worth the effort.
Case in POint: On a lark I purchased a Mercer ten inch chef knive for bargain prices.. To my surprise the knive is a beauty. No large steel bolster, no rivets in the handle, and I would assume stamped rather than forged (though the tapping test is solid and sounds like forged). The overall knife is sensational and if I'm been working mostly with Hanckens and Wustof's this cheapie, though different, seemed to be right there.
The knife passed all my paper tests, but the edge seemed coarsely ground and, if not 'ragged" neverthess toothy with the grind mark all up and down the bevel. - even if that "toothiness" wasn't reflected in the silkie way it cut the paper.
I worked the darn thing for an hour on the black Arkansas, got a nice sound even if there was little resistance. Couldn't see any visible difference. Went back to my "hard" Arkansas and worked on that and then finished again on the super smooth black stone.
In both instances I stropped (green). A view under a magnifying glass seemed to confirm that my angle was correct and in line with the original angle used on the blade.
The grind marks were still there, though apparenatly not as deep and I didn't get the mirror shine I was looking for. Under the magnifying glass the edge looks near to perfect. The paper cutting was silkier and I almost cut circles free hand.
The steel is X30Cr13, is that especially hard and therefore resitant to the black stone's coaxing?
Is in fact, the black stone worth the trouble?
This was an exercise for fun on a ridiculously low priced knife and I suspect the toothy edge might be more effective at grabbing and cutting than the mirror edge I was looking for. The knive was so cheap and so impressive that I ordered another one simply to have a basis for compaisrion.
Still a newbie at this, I'd appreciate any insight.
 
after a lot of research , that steel is listed as equivalent to 420 J2 and I found this...
Overview:
420 J2 is a general purpose stainless steel containing medium quantity of carbon. It has good corrosion resistance qualities in mild atmosphere, domestic and industrial environments. It is resistant to ammonia, blood, carbonic acid, crude oil, detergent solutions, dilute nitric acid, fresh water, food acids, many petroleum products, steam and vinegar, etc. It has good strength and reasonable impact resistant properties in both hardened and tempered conditions as compared to 440 grades.

It is also called Surgical Steel, because it is being used in production of Surgical instruments on large scale around the world, due to its good corrosion resistant and easily machining qualities. It is also being used in cutting tools like; Knifes, Daggers, Swords, Haircutting Scissors and Domestic Scissors. It’s grinding is easy and it produces a fine, vivid and smooth polished surface.

420 steel, due to its excellent harden-ability, it is capable of getting hardened up to 56 HRC Rockwell or higher depending upon carbon contents / composition. Small sections can be air or gas cooled and larger sections should be oil quenched for maximum hardness.
 
I still have a few of the Arkansas Stones ( novaculite) that I've had for several years. I don't use them very much anymore. I do have one super hard variant called the "Blue-Black" Arkansas Stone and it's about as hard and probably rated an Ultra-fine grit. I've used it for final finishing a couple of times with good success. But most of the newer supersteels we have now just laugh at Arkansas stones for the most part.

Back in their day when most knives were made of simple 1095 or other common carbon steels the Arkansas stones were the way to go. But the hardness and abrasion resistance of these newer steels it's getting to where only diamond and super hard ceramic are about the only stones I use anymore.

But I still have interest in natural stones if I could find stones that could take on these newer steels.
 
JD Spydo said:
most of the newer supersteels we have now just laugh at Arkansas stones for the most part.
Click to expand...

I don't have a black. I do have a very high quality translucent white hard Ark that i once put a nice polish ON THE STONE using an A2 blade.

I think that about says it. Yes good for 1095.

Isn't a black MORE COARSE than the white and so should go black first then white ?
Grizz299 said:
Went back to my "hard" Arkansas and worked on that and then finished again on the super smooth black stone.
Click to expand...
 
Wow bagger, I have three arky's, and I've been sharpening Henckels and Wustof's with no problem.
There's a soft, a hard (rated about 800 grit ) and the black very smooth final stone.
Can the cheap knive be harder than the very expensive "made in Germany" Wustof's and Hanckels.?
 
Grizz299 said:
I worked the darn thing for an hour on the black Arkansas, got a nice sound even if there was little resistance. Couldn't see any visible difference.
Click to expand...
Grizz299 said:
Wow bagger, I have three arky's, and I've been sharpening Henckels and Wustof's with no problem.
There's a soft, a hard (rated about 800 grit ) and the black very smooth final stone.
Click to expand...

Oh I see, the hard isn't a translucent.

Can the cheap knive be harder than the very expensive "made in Germany" Wustof's and Hanckels.?
Click to expand...
Probably not. Maybe in your case the softer stainless just smeared into the pores of the stone (as it will do ONTO diamond grit stones) and then just stopped being able to cut.

Generally cheep sucky stainless steel is just that and not worth messing with.
Better to go with very cheep but much better to sharpen plain high carbon.
 
Hi Grizz299
So the issue is the edge doesn't look mirrory enough?
or its not as sharp as you'd like?

Are you using lube?
When is the last time you reconditioned/resurfaced the stones?
How hard are you pressing, half a pound? one pound? two pounds?

For more mirrory
Maybe all you need to do is use drops of oil on stone
and press a bit harder on the coarser stones, and work your way up

Or maybe one of the stones needs some de-swarfing with oil ... or some resurfacing (short lap)


For higher sharpness, maybe skip the strop and see what you can do with stones alone

Are you using microbevels?
Are you double angle deburring between stones?

Use edge leading alternating strokes for final strokes (20)?
Use short strokes for final strokes?
Do you cross the scratch pattern?
Using lighter than light force on finishing strokes and deburring (under ~4oz or ~100 grams , as close to 5-10-20 grams as possible)?

Thats the magic trick with most knives ("cheep sucky stainless steel is just that and not worth messing with."), try to avoid giant burrs or go burrless, use lube, finish with light force, cross the scratches, double angle deburr then backsharpen



stefanwolf88/search?query=arkansas
Translucent arkansas - 3Cr13 steel - part 2 - Stefan Wolf - Part 2 - Low carbon low hardness SS kitchen knife "plateau method" sharpening

if freshly conditioned Novaculite is good for microbevels on hard steels if freshly conditioned Knife Sharpening : 64 HRC k390 + Soft Arkansas - CliffStamp
 
Grizz, clean your black Arkansas and try it again. It should have a better effect on that steel. Which is a low grade stainless. The black is finer than the translucent. Keep your angle consistent. DM
 
If you're looking for a mirror shine on 420-grade stainless steels, just use some metal polish like Flitz or Simichrome, stropping the bevels on a piece of hard, smooth wood, or on paper over a hard backing, like glass or wood. That'll get it done FAST on such a steel.

The black hard Arkansas won't cut or polish the steel very well, if the stone's surface is clogged or glazed; and it's pretty easy to clog or glaze the surface of such a stone, with very much use. Lapping the stone with some SiC grit can get it cutting efficiently again. Make sure to use the stone with oil afterward, to minimize the clogging issues.

I've found the best use of a black hard Arkansas is to use it in a similar vein as one might use a polished kitchen steel. I've found them to be very good edge aligners, as well as doing a small amount of very subtle polishing and refining (thinning) of edges in steel suited to such stones. Beyond that, I don't expect them to be miracle workers, in terms of quickly polishing anything. An edge needs to be fully ready for it, to get much more out of them.
 
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Daniel paul said:
Would it work on 52100 i have a black i use for 1095 dont wanna glaze it tho
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Would probably work alright, if the stone is in good shape and the edge is ready for it. 52100 is more wear-resistant than 1095, with a little bit of chromium added. So, it might have a little bit of hard carbide content (1095 has none, essentially). But it's likely not enough to make a big difference on the stones, I'd think. More would likely depend on the heat-treated hardness of the blade itself. But at more typical hardness of high-50s to low-60s HRC, I'd assume it should sharpen up OK on Arkansas stones.
 
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bucketstove said:
Are you using lube?

Thank you for taking the time Bucket stove...appreciated and to all the rest of you experts.
yes, mineral oil
When is the last time you reconditioned/resurfaced the stones?
like me the stone is new and when I'm through I clean it with the oil...I think the stone is fine.
How hard are you pressing, half a pound? one pound? two pounds?
I don't think that 's the problem. The edge is fine, just marks from the grinding stone and for no reason
I wanted to take them out and go for a more mirrored lookl

For more mirrory
Maybe all you need to do is use drops of oil on stone
and press a bit harder on the coarser stones, and work your way up


Or maybe one of the stones needs some de-swarfing with oil ... or some resurfacing (short lap)


For higher sharpness, maybe skip the strop and see what you can do with stones alone

Are you using microbevels?
Are you double angle deburring between stones?

Use edge leading alternating strokes for final strokes (20)?
Use short strokes for final strokes?
Do you cross the scratch pattern?

Now you're hitting on it. I don't deburr I use strokes with the cutting edge trailing then back with cutting edge leading. Then reverse the blade and go cutting edge forward, cutting edge trailing. In my own mind, I think the cutting edge trailing is serving as my de-burring. I use a magnifying glass and only occasionaly find a burr.
The method is working...generally. The knife a Mercer may sell for little but it seems anything but cheap. I refined the edge but simply
couldn't get rid of the grind marks. Dumb to sharpen a brand new knife, just an exercise.



Using lighter than light force on finishing strokes and deburring (under ~4oz or ~100 grams , as close to 5-10-20 grams as possible)?

Thats the magic trick with most knives ("cheep sucky stainless steel is just that and not worth messing with."), try to avoid giant burrs or go burrless, use lube, finish with light force, cross the scratches, double angle deburr then backsharpen
Click to expand...
 
OK I thought about this a little and what you said and I researched a bit and here is what I think :
You mentioned what . . . over a hundred strokes . . . 150 was it ?
Here is my take on that one; with modern engineered super fine water stones (8,000 to 16,000) you could do the same thing or BETTER (as far as fine finish) by taking about six to twenty passes per side. How's that sound ;).

As far as which is finer Trans Ark or Black I found some one saying that he discussed it with the owner of Dan's sharpening stone company and he said it all depended on how the stone was prepared / finished / "polished" that it is the same material just different color.

You can have my modern engineered water stones in a nice progression of grits (120 through 15,000) when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
I don't need ANY strops and my Hard Translucent Arkansas stone is fun to own and look at but when I want to sharpen something, especially my somethings that are high alloy and very high hardness, my hand reaches past the Hard Ark for the Shapton Pros or Shapton Glass (maybe a bit of a flirt with some diamond stones once in a while).

Pretty to look at though
IMG_1464.JPG
IMG_1466.JPG
 
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