Black Dye Problems

Rick Marchand

Donkey on the Edge
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I can't figure this one out, guys...

I have been using Tandy Eco-Flo brand water-based dye for 2 yrs without problems of colour bleeding. I hot dip all my sheathes in a wax mixture to seal them and all has been good.

I used black for the first time and am having huge problems with colour bleeding. Why won't it seal? The minute the sheath gets damp it bleeds like a stuck pig...... my hands are blue... and I don't dare send it to the customer.

Thoughts?

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Could it be that the wax is pushing the dye out? I REALLY gave these sheathes a heavy coating of dye..... I mean I SOAKED them with a sponge of the stuff. I know that some of the wax migrates out while it dries and with use.... hmmmmm

I have't redipped the sheaths.... but I have some scraps I've been messing around with trying to figure this out.... redipping hasn't helped.
 
Black always bleeds like a stuck pig for me, too--then again, it takes a LOT of Eco-Flo black to get it looking black, at least for me. Have you tried vinegaroon instead? As far as fixing the dye in this one, the only thing I can think of would be to put a coat of Resolene on it
 
I've always had problems with black and that's with spirit dyes. They would always rub off and I agree with Noah that only Resolene can stop that.

But... if you're willing to use Fiebing's Oil Dye, the black goes on black, penetrates well, doesn't have that powdery residue and seems to stay put!!.

Finally I feel okay dyeing sheaths black again.
 
Stuart has it right, the Pro Oil dye is the only one I've used that wont migrate out or leave a powdery residue. It takes a couple of coats to get it nice and black.

I've heard nothing but bad things about the water based Eco Flow, it never seems to work well.
 
when I used spirit dyes, I would buff with an old sock, then add a heavy application of neatsfoot, letting it dry a few days and then waxing and never had any problems, but I never used the water based dyes.
what wax are you using? mine was a homemade blend of beeswax, parrafin, and mink oil.
 
i haaaaaate the eco-flo dye's...:thumbdn: i haven't had to use too much of it, since my local leather store still has tons of Fiebing's dye.. :D though what has worked best for me with the black eco-flo, is to put a base of blue under the black.. it comes out much darker...
 
is there a chance the leather wasn't dry when you waxed it?
could you try heating the sheath to soak the wax in better, buff it thoroughly, then re-dip in hot wax?
 
I'll give that a shot tomorrow...


Can Resolene be applied over a sheath that has already been wax dipped?

Rick
 
I have NEVER used Eco-products, and never will, so I can't make a statement or point there.

It's strictly Feibings Pro Oil Dye....when I do dye and that is mostly just the finished edges.

That is the main reason I use Wickett & Craig pre dyed leather. None of the colors, and particularly black rub off or bleed.

I don't hot dip anything. I have always wondered why you would try so very hard to make a vessel that would hold water out of a sheath??? Hot dipping should accomplish this, but again, why? Waterproofing means water won't pass through right? ..... so if water does happen to get inside, where does it go?

There comes a time to cut your losses and the OP may have hit that point and it may be time to can that one and start over using different products. If the dye won't stay put now, I really doubt it will improve after another hot dip.

These are just random thoughts connected very loosely to the thread subject. Take them for what they are.

Paul
 
Fiebing's spirit dyes bleed badly enough. The water-based Eco-Flo is even worse from everything I've read, and I'm heeding all recommendations to stay away from it.

Black is notoriously bad with bleeding. When I dye something black, I do a ton of buffing with a shoe-shine brush and a sock to get any residual oxidation off. Then I'll reapply more dye, then buff again. I'll repeat until I'm happy with the color and then finish with something like Resolene or Leather Sheen. I'm surprised you're getting bleeding even after a wax treatment. I figured that stuff would seal everything up tight.

With the old school type stuff you do, I'm surprised you're not going old-school with some vinegaroon dye like was linked above.
 
I have problems with bleeding with my black Feibring Spirit dye. I do like TX Bulldog does - but I still get some bleeding sealing with Montana Pitch Blend.

I have NEVER had it turn my hands blue or come off that much though Rick.

TF
 
I used vinegaroon on this sheath. The solution can be brushed on the outside after the sheath is glued up, rub on some water/baking soda paste to neutralize, rub it off with a cloth after it dries, then waterproof with beeswax and neatsfoot oil. Simple and effective. Using the vinegaroon creates the most beautiful charcoal black color with no streaks and is permanent, no bleed out whatsoever because it is a chemical reaction, not a dye. After trying this method and using it, there is no way I would ever go back to using conventional messy chemical dyes and finishes.

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Thanks for the vinegaroon tip...... first I hear of it..... that's right up my alley!

Infact, I unknowingly made a tupperware container of it a few months ago.... how long does it keep!

I'm on my forth buff and seal with the previous sheaths..... they are definately getting better.... I might sneak past this learning experience with no casualties.


THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT FEEDBACK, GENTS...... you to TF.



Rick
 
Rick, I just finished this using a vinegaroon concoction that must be about 2 years old by now...still fine blackness....but I'm gonna do a new batch of it soon just because.
Don't forget the baking soda bath after the v-roon...to neutralize the vinegar aroma...maybe...kinda.......
 

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Vinegar lack aka vinegaroon
The original recipe:
VINEGAR BLACK
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks get the turnings from brake drums) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.

FWIW - I've been using this blacking for 40+ years and here's how I do it most times:
I use de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of white or cider vinegar (I prefer the latter) I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. If you let it set in the hot sun it will speed the reaction. I let it "cook" for about two weeks until there is only a light vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool has been dissolved. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.
If need be for a deeper black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increases the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few minutes, and then rinse off. While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry, top coat as normal
Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.

Instead of steel wool you can use chopped up bailing or fence wire - the smaller the better since it will dissolve in the vinegar bath faster.

re: the smell -
1) Keep adding iron/steel wool until it quits dissolving it, this will use up all of the acid. Also stir the mix while it's brewing in order to aid in the off gasing and to introduce as much oxygen as possible. Strain/filter the mix to remove any left over iron - use it for your next batch.
2) Once done and dry hang in front of a fan - the air movement will help eliminate any residual odor - mine seldom smells for more than a day at most.
3) Be careful with the baking soda rinse, too strong, too long can cause the leather to "burn" - not a good thing. Just a quick dip or wipe down with the NS mix is enough and be sure to after rinse well with clear, clean water - if your tap water is high in iron use bottled water.


fallacies - in reading the various forums I've seen a few - the most glaring one saying to use rusty iron. For leather this can in fact be counter productive - rusty iron can be better for when using this as a wood "stain" when one wants the stain to offer more red tones, but for leather is unnecessary.


bottom line - as Emeril would say "it ain't rocket science......" :D ;) :D
 
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