Recommendation? Black Fox One Grinder??

slashfuzzle

slashfuzzle

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Mar 16, 2018
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Hey guys,

I am in the market for a 2x72 and am about to pull the trigger on a Black Fox One: https://blackfoxknifeworks.com/knifegrinder/black-fox-one. I am on the list for a Northridge, but growing impatient, and for the same price as the NRT I can get a tilting BFO including the small wheel attachment and wheels (not just the attachment like the NRT), wired motor and integrated kbac vfd, flat platen/arm, work rest/arm, additional 10" wheel/arm, and even cover the 50% on their upcoming surface grinding attachment, with shipping included.

I think it's a great deal and I'm really close to going w it, I just can't find any reviews on the actual design/use of this thing. I've heard nothing but great things about the quality of the NRT and I'm hesitant to throw down over 3k for something unproven.

Anyone have this grinder and have any thoughts now that it's been out for at least a little while?
 
OK, I missed the model number on their webpage, just the photos. I didn't realize KB sold the board level open frame drive. A way to save money over the NEMA 4X enclosure. I do like the clean look of the integrated drive and controls. Nothing else to mount - just plug in and go. I guess it's got enough heatsink to dissipate the heat without air flow?
 
Not sure about airflow. I did ask about whether the enclosure was waterproof in case I added a mister and it sounds like direct spray would be a no-go but indirect ok. Aren’t KBAC’s waterproof?
 
My past grinders have been 2 KMG'S and a TW-90. Due to life's setbacks I lost everything. Several months ago I was able purchase another grinder. I chose a Pheer and absolutely love it. I would buy 2 before I bought another TW-90. HOWEVER..... If you have the funds and willing to spend it. GET THE NEW KMG!!! I just bought their new rest to use on my Pheer. INCREDIBLE!!!!!IMG_20190202_174109_201.jpg IMG_20190202_174109_210.jpg IMG_20190202_174109_208.jpg
 
As ”cool” as the vfd mounting is I don’t care for its placement. Exerything around the grinder is going to get covered in grit, dust and wherever else your grinding. Also that location is just asking for thoes switches and knobs to get knocked of. My vfd is on the wall out of harms way. Still easily accessible from the grinding position. The other thing that concerns me is heat. My KB vfd is sealed and has an external heat sink to dissipate heat. This is quite common on any device that controlls power and is sealed. My heat treat oven has an external heat sink as well.

I have not personally used there grinders, but just a quick glance brought thoes concerns to my attention.
 
Putting an integral VFD on a grinder is an upgrade a grinder just does not need. The KABC drives can actually be hosed down and covered in dust with zero problem.
 
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I have not seen or used one, but a lot of the Black Fox design features seem like they were rushed to production and not tested/evaluated thoroughly. In other words, the customers are the beta testers. Black Fox seems to not be asking the following question: "This feature/functionality/construction detail seems amazing now, but how will it be after 12 months of being sprayed by sparks, banged into, etc?"

In the most general sense, something that I see a lot is as follows:

Company A develops something, it sells for $X. It is widely embraced and is considered a proven design, made by a company with a proven track record of support and success.

Company B develops something similar and figures they can also charge a price close to $X. The thing that's missing is the 'proven design' and 'proven track record' parts.

In defense of Black Fox, I'll say the following. Overall it looks like a solid design; I'm considering buying one. Competition is a good thing, and I greatly appreciate their vision of continual innovation and improvement. The kind of rigorous long-term product testing that we'd all like to see is simply too big of a financial hurdle for any small company to take on. It is completely understandable that some features are rushed into production; I think it is likely that Black Fox will take care of anyone who has a genuine issue with their purchase.
 
Thanks all, I think I’ll stick with either the NRT or the KMG-TX then. Good point on the placement of the VFD, I also don’t like the idea of being locked into that setup and unable to use the vfd with a different grinder down the line if/when needed.
 
Hi Guys! Love the discussion. I would agree that our generation 1 and 2 machines were beta builds. Our current generation 3 machine is solid. A single reference surface avoids tolerance stack up that can kill tracking and built around easily switching between horizontal and vertical.

A bit about my background: I worked for SEL in there customer enclosures department designing electrical enclosures for the power grid system. I am currently working as an engineering manager for a food processing equipment manufacturing company (high heat, pressure, and chemical wash down procedures). My experience with wash down design is well rounded and a bit overkill for this market. I have a lot of experience with designing enclosures and the ratings of enclosures. While the design of our enclosure is solid it has not been NEMA tested so I can't put a NEMA rating on it. All I can claim is that it has been used in dusty environments for well over a year without any issues. I personally have not tired to run the grinder with a mister but I have high confidence that indirect water spray will be no problem.

When I think of wash down it has to survive direct spray from a water jet hose for a number of mins/hours without ingress. I know that this cabinet is not built to those standards and I don't think it should be. What I would be comfortable claiming is that the cabinet can protect against dust, indirect water spray, and direct water spray for a few seconds.

When I designed this unit I wanted to expand on the functionality while using the same control panel. Lots of cool things you could do with centralized controls like adding in switches for lights, water pumps, and switching between VFDs. That is why we have aux switch location built in. The controls are easy to see, use, don't move when you rotate the grinder, and not extra mounting is need for them. All big pluses in my experience.

While I am trying to run a successful business I will 100% make sure you are satisfied with your purchase before I take any profit (which I haven't yet. Takes about 2-3 years to build up inventory organically plus there are to many things I want to develop. The curse of being a driven engineer :)).

By the way have you see our new surface grinder attachment? After some initial testing with 3D printed parts this thing is going to be sweet and the next standard for surface grinders.

Also applied for a patent on a new belt tension system. Going to release that soon.

I could go on and on about the design but I would Love to hear any questions or comments on the grinder.
 

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Black Fox Knife Works said:
By the way have you see our new surface grinder attachment?
Click to expand...

Yes, I saw it, and with respect, it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I've used that exact same IGUS rail/carriage system on a belt grinder accessory, and it just isn't good, especially in a production setting. When new, the sliding motion is just not as smooth or tight as other rail/carriage options out there. As you use it, grinding spark/dust will fuse to and build up on the aluminum rails, and grit will get in between the plastic carriage liner and the liner housing. There's a reason why this IGUS slide is one of the cheapest options out there. This begs the question - how many different types of rail/carriage systems did you test before you settled on the IGUS slide? (No answer required, I'm just making a point). Considering that the slide is the core feature of the SGA, this is a big deal. I would be very unhappy if I spent $1000+ on something that was frustrating to use and clearly build from components that aren't the best option.
 
P.Brewster said:
Yes, I saw it, and with respect, it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I've used that exact same IGUS rail/carriage system on a belt grinder accessory, and it just isn't good, especially in a production setting. When new, the sliding motion is just not as smooth or tight as other rail/carriage options out there. As you use it, grinding spark/dust will fuse to and build up on the aluminum rails, and grit will get in between the plastic carriage liner and the liner housing. There's a reason why this IGUS slide is one of the cheapest options out there. This begs the question - how many different types of rail/carriage systems did you test before you settled on the IGUS slide? (No answer required, I'm just making a point). Considering that the slide is the core feature of the SGA, this is a big deal. I would be very unhappy if I spent $1000+ on something that was frustrating to use and clearly build from components that aren't the best option.
Click to expand...
Interesting... Tested quite a few at my other job and found these to work the best... We had the same problem with roller bearing systems and destroying unsealed bearings. Did you try different inserts from Igus?
 
Black Fox Knife Works said:
Interesting... Tested quite a few at my other job and found these to work the best... We had the same problem with roller bearing systems and destroying unsealed bearings. Did you try different inserts from Igus?
Click to expand...

No, I didn't try different inserts - mainly because changing inserts has no affect on the two problems I mentioned (grit building up on the rails, and grit getting in between the carriage liner and carriage housing). For my application, it was ok, because I was setting and forgetting rather than continually sliding. For your Y axis motion (in and out), it will probably be fine. My concern is the X axis (left to right).

As for the problem of grit getting in between the carriage liner and carriage housing, the answer is to use a bearing that has the liner bonded to the housing (e.g. Pacific Bearing), or to use a different type of slide.
 
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